I really dont believe some people understand what needs to be done to give yourself any opportunity to greatness.

"I see the Bulldogs won tonight, so our win against them was a fluke right.

Last night Banno played OK, he is worth perservering with and 2 out of 3 aint bad right."

That mentality says it all.
First... the year we won our last premiership we lost to the Swans and the Saints who were all the way down at the bottom of the ladder...
Second... if you think Banno doing ok 2 out of 3 weeks means he can help take the club to another level then you dont understand football.
We lack depth!
We lack class!
We lack leadership!

Each time you give yourself an opportunity to draft early you have another REAL crack at bringing those qualities into the club.

We didnt have the balls to trade for early picks (unlike Hawthorn- and thats how they snagged Lewis- even though they were getting Roughead and Franklin... we got getting JR....

So of course they went right past us!!!...

Hawthorn are a team that is priming itself for sustained success. A window of about 6 or 7 years and maybe more at winning premierships.
You have to get over HAwthorn to win a premiership!!!...
So you need to add class and depth... and not just players.

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Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

Spot on Blue4ever.But i think by going all out youth for the remainder of the season we can avoid the tank accusation while giving certain players valuable game time.The only way to improve the list is with early picks and smart trading.After that belting the expectations have been lowered and we can stay out of the spotlight which we arent ready for anyway.Apart from the blowouts hasnt been a bad season for us.[/quote]

As you are well accustomed by now, I am pretty much a 'glass is half full' kind of supporter. But somewhere along the line when I see evidence of obvious problems (that aren't going away), it's no good pulling the wool over my eyes and pretending it will go away. We have issues that need serious attention and addressing. Hard choices must be faced and made.

Whatever your thoughts:

Tanking vs no Tanking
Whitnall in or out
Kouta retire or stay on
Ackland failure or success
Saddo's good or bad
Youth or play the hardened bodies
Pagan or new coach

The one question we have to ask ourselves is do we want to tolerate such insipid efforts again? It's obvious. The answer is 'no'.

Lets learn to make rational decisions.

So we have the abovementioned in our team, and more. Who are they?

They're our leaders and our experience, our hardened bodies with minds of steel, the directors on the field, and the protectors of the kids. Tell me what difference did they make to the result on Friday? None or in fact they helped Hawks by being there. Are they going to help us moving forward? Are they prolonging the inevitable? Either way you look at it the kids are going to have to stand up for themselves and be counted, and the abovementioned are taking the place of a kid with much much more upside and desperate to learn and prove themselves.

Do we want to compete against the Hawks in the future? Well the abovementioned have proven to all of us that they can't compete with the Hawks today, and will less and less able to do so as time passes them by. So it's over red rover for them. Just being realistic.

I agree with Synners remarks:



It's the abovementioned guys that are paid to do the above. Are they earning their keep? No, if they are suppose to have the above attributes.

So Pagan is the master coach. This is 2007 and we have just experienced another 100 point drubbing. What is so masterful about that? Lets be realistic, we're all tired of this crap and I can say as of today, I've grown tired of him and I'm over him. Five years of this, and seeing it again after he said it would never happen again after the Cats game...well it has, and it's over Pagan. He knows it, so you, the supporters beteer get use to it too.

Kouta, Lance, Saddo, Ackland...given we aren't playing finals, we can only afford to be carrying one of them on the bench, if any, and to me that's Kouta, as a pinch hitter, in the middle, but I hope he retires at the end of this year so we can move forward and stop living in the past; the game has passed his peak.

So why should we carry a captain with one knee, a player with no pace, an old man and a man with no heart? What good is that to our team?

I'd rather have Kennedy playing his heart out competing for every ball and pressuring the opposition when he doesn't have the ball than having Lance watching. Lance can't direct when he's out of puff and can't talk. It's over Lance; retire gracefully; blame the knee if you have to.

I'd rather have Aisake learning in the one's, because we don't have an Everitt for our apprentice's to learn from, but they have to learn; at least they will have something to play for. Ackland has got a 3 year $450K per year contract to run for the next 2 1/2 years. Who cares who made the decision and why. He's laughing at us. He is a mistake and he's holding us back to 21 players once he's counted in the 22. He has no pride. He's a lout!

Sadly, Saddo doesn't need to do an appreticeship and can't get any better, so lets put someone in the team that has more upside and need for experience....Hartlett, Bower, Flint...I don't care which one(s)...just do it for the sake of progress. Lets find out what they've got, and what they haven't got before the end of the year, then we will start making some good decisions for them and the team, based on what we see.

Lets get the backline stabilised. Add a bit of height and pace to it. If that means Setanta at FB so be it. After the break I'd like to see:

Anderson Setanta Thornton
Scotland Hartlett Bower/Benjamin/Grigg

I'm a Houlihan fan, and prefer to play him on a wing/ forward. If he is trade bait, then I'll go along with it, but can we at least let that decision be made by the new coach and not Pagan / MC, nor by the Houla haters. In other words, we need a change of coach before the trade period commences. Lets take on the insight an outsider (new coach) may give us; and we'll back it.

Pace. Where is it?

Anderson
Benjamin
Betts
Grigg
Aisake
Edwards
Raso

Is that enough depth in pace? Are they ready? Will they have what it takes? If so, then bring it on.

I'm not sure about Betts, or even Benjamin (haven't seen him)...and I'm not completely sold on Blackwell or Wiggins, and although Bentick and Banno are favourites of mine...I'm not sure about them either atm. Maybe it's true, that we can only carry one of Bentick, Blackwell and Kouta.

What I do know is that I'm not sold on Wiggins and Cloke, but at least they would spill blood for this jumper and their team mates.

I want FINALS and a FLAG, and I want a coach that can make that happen before this years trading starts. I wan to turn a new page, and that means for me the retirement of Pagan, Lance, Saddo, McLaren, Teague and Kouta for starters.

In the meantime, drop Lance, Saddo, Ackland, maybe even one of Kouta, Bentick or Blackwell and make a statement that if you don't give your all week in week out, or you don't have the pace or at least smarts to compete at this level, you play in the Ants.

We have a chance now to make a statement to the players, to the supporters, to the football community.

I'd give Wiggo and Banno a chance to play 5 games in a row.

So what about leaders? The abovementioned oldies are not our leaders! Age does not automatically imply leadership. Our leaders are Fevola, Waite, Thornton, Scotland, Simpson and Stevens, with their deputies being Walker, Murphy and Gibbs. There's the future.

BUT, let the kids play, let them bond and give them a chance to build a competitive team; their team...give them ownership and we wont have to worry so much about them leaving 'their' team, because they will want to make it to the finals, together.

Call that tanking and I don't give a rats what it's called. To me it's the call we have to make, especially now that we have the chance to make changes. All I know is that we can only afford to lose 3 more games if we are going to make the finals in 2007.

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Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

That makes absolute 100% perfect sense. I agree with every word of what you just said.

I'm a very strong advocate for not tanking, but I see a definite difference between tanking and giving the kids a go. To me, tanking implies that we should not try to win any more games this year and expect the PP to save us somehow (which it won't, trust me). But what we should be doing is giving match practice to the kids in the 2's that would give their left nut to be in the position that guys like Ackland are in and would gladly cop a kick in the head to achieve that.

I wonder though, how many of these discussions to you think we'd be having if Stevo was still in the team. Think about it...

Having said this, who are our trade bait this year?

I'll have a go:

Houlihan - 2nd rounder at best
Russell - 2nd rounder at best
Bentick - 3rd rounder at best
Whitnall - 3rd rounder at best
Fisher - 2nd rounder at best
Bower - 3rd rounder
Hartlett - 2nd rounder at best
Stevens - 1st rounder (not that I'd trade him)
Fevola - could demand 2 x 1st rounders
Wiggins - 3rd rounder at best
Carazzo - 2nd rounder at best

So, out of that list Fev would be the only player you could trade for early picks, and Stevens, but we need leadership in the midfield and experience so would be against this.

We had the chance at off loading Lance for a 1st rounder to Melb a few years ago, but not to be.

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For some silly reason, you people want to assassinate him, and it's just rubbish. You people. All of you, ALL of you!

Friday night was unacceptable. Don't let the performances of previous two weeks fool you. Port would have sunk us had it not been for their poor kicking at the goal and we scraped through against the doggies. After 5 years of Pagan we still keep producing the same rubbish. It is simply not good enough, no more excuses from DP. 5 years is enough time and draft picks even with the penalties to develop a reasonably performing team with strong leadership. The coach has to go and go now.

Well said Bondi

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"Dont count the games, make the games count"

I think Friday nights performance was the bale that broke the camels back...............

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Circumstance has no value. It is how one relates to a situation that has value. All true meaning resides in the personal relationship to a phenomenon, what it means to you.

is camelboy ok?



Nic

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Cuck Follingwood

We win a couple of games and you're nowhere to be seen. When we lose, well .......

I'll repeat what I said for the deaf and dumb - let's make an assessment at the end of the year. BTW, St.Kilda was priming itself for sustained success as well. To say you have to get over Hawthorn to win a premiership over a 6-7 year period shows a complete lack of understanding of football. Hawthorn have a good half of a season, so now they will be leading contenders for 6-7 years! The top teams have their measure easily (WCE, Geelong, Sydney, Adelaide).

I'm sick of flowers on this site who enjoy beating the crap out of our own team. So we lack class, is Sydney a team laden with class? So we lack depth? How do you know this? You talk about flowering development of youngsters, whats not to say some of the guys now in the twos don;t become stars (Bower, Edwards, Grigg et al). So we lack leadership? Leadership starts at the very top, and now we have Pratt. It'll take 12 months to instill his expectations into actions, but we have some terrific young leaders in the side. Yes I agree Whitnall is probably not the best captaincy choice and this will be rectified at the end of the year.

Yes we're a bottom 4 team at the moment, that's the reality. But we're not as bad as we portrayed Friday night. Remember long term is more than one week.

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I love spinach

Assuming i was here spamming how good we were when we won 2 weeks in a row... would i have been ahead of myself????......

And remember.... long term is having an opportunity to recruit the best available kids... planned.!!!

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Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

Dont tell me how I think or what I feel and certainly dont tell me who I can barrack for.

I put both my MONEY and my MOUTH with Carlton - as many around here can attest to.

My opinion as to the way forward for Carlton doesn't make me negative - I have the long term interest at Carlton at heart.

You are a football junkie looking for your next quick fix.

This is not a quick fix project and if you think that a few cheap wins in the back half of this season is going to turn this list into a Premiership Contender then you clearly have no clue.

Here is a can opener "XXXXXXX" go open yourself a tin of spinach - and while your at it get a clue.

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"Hence you will not say that Greeks fight like heroes but that heroes fight like Greeks"?

Winston Churchill

Hey AGRO............those XXXXXXX can openers are bloody rippers!

It is symbolic about peoples touch with reality.

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"Hence you will not say that Greeks fight like heroes but that heroes fight like Greeks"?

Winston Churchill

I'll repeat for the umpteenth time - let's make an assessment at the end of the year. We still don't know what our list is capable of (of sorry, of course you do). This was only one game, that's what I've been talking about. I don't post that often but I feel there needs to be some balance here and some reason, too many going off half cocked and also enjoying when we lose because it supposedly gets us better draft picks. FFS, this is Carlton Football Club, we stand for success and winning at all costs. There are never cheap wins in this comp, and the more games we win this year the better we will be for it. There have numerous posts about the draft system on this site, but look at the last 3 premiers, how many priority picks in that lot. And Judd was number 3 overall.

And those so called cheap wins help with sponsors, gate receipts and most importantly give the playing group a sense they are heading somewhere. And as supporters and members we (well most of us) love it when Carlton wins. Sometimes it sounds like some posters think we have no talent on our list - we're still an emerging young side and we had one downer. That's what happens, if you're swtiched off and the other mob are switched on then it's goodnight. Us v Port last week, Us v Haw this week, Adel v Kang last night. What disappointed me about Fri night was we gave in in the last quarter, that's unacceptable and needs to be addressed. But for pro-tankers, it must have been gold. I hope you never get into any decision making role at the club, with that type of thinking you'll destroy it's very fabric.

By the way pal, I'm as paid up as you are if not more so don't think you're a BSD.

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I love spinach

"Oooooooohh BSD".

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"Hence you will not say that Greeks fight like heroes but that heroes fight like Greeks"?

Winston Churchill

So much for the one word responses

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I see you watching me watching you.

You sound like Terry Wallace before he hit a snag......

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Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

Jeez Mark....whatta bout mine?...........Fevolanonstopscreamingforpushinthebackitis. ...........

Hey................

I'M the greatest Carlton supporter............!

cos i'm the REAL......pop............eye.......!


kindest regards tommi

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that'siti'mnotchangingthistagain......!