wow, Pagan in The Matrix

Chop him.
Has had 5 years and as a team we have gone no where. Not to mention the horrible decisions he has made. To even consider drafting Zantuck he should have been sacked then and there.
2 wins in a row doesn't make him a success.

Game plan is one thing, and Denis has finally seen the light on a few things the last couple of weeks, but he still has form.

Some things still need to change ... for example, next time a kid comes in, will he spend the whole game on the bench, or actually get used?

Will he get dragged after 2 minutes if he makes a skill error?

I'll give him credit for changing some things, but gees some things which needed changing were bleeding obvious ... such as that we needed a couple of extra runners, and to stop just tagging guys with our best runners.

As far as I'm concerned. number of wins is not a factor.

Another piece of lazy, small picture, space filling journalism.

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There's so much I could say...

I reckon there are two KPI's here.

The first is the number of wins, and 8 seems about right. It's double last year and would indicate progress.

The second is percentage. Over the past five years (2002-2006), our average percentage has been around 74% (calculated as the average of the 5 end of year percentages). I think we'd also need to keep our percentage in the 80%+ bracket. This is a fair indication of our competitiveness (ie limit the number of times that we are thumped).

If we win 7 or 8 games with a percentage in the 80's I reckon it's possible Denis could survive. But I also think that should this be the case, he'd be told that 12 wins would be the target next year, and he'd be suseptible to be replaced anytime next season should he survive.

Scrape 8 wins with a few thumpings and I don't think it would be enough to save his job.

I think the great man said 10th. If he can get us 10th or better then even I'll be happy for him to continue.

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"We used to sit around and talk about how bad the game plan was." Anthony Koutoufides

DICK said anything less than tenth on the ladder would be a failure. He didnt nominate a number of wins required. Lets face it DP for the last 4 years has been going to a weekly gun fight armed with a slingshot and a pocket knife. Now finally he is able to shoot back. He deserves an opportunity to put the club back to its rightful place in the 8, NEXT YEAR.

The comments he made were a lot fuzzier than that PJ. He said that if we win only 2 games for the year, there'd be an end of season review. He said also that he thought we should win 10 and if so there's no reason to have a review. Plenty of grey area for him to exploit in between, whether Pagan ends up staying or going.

In the wake of the NAB Cup Premiership, he did say he thought we should finish at least 10th. Then after Stevo went under the knife, he set tongues wagging with another interview where he did mention 10 wins. It seemed to raise the bar a bit, especially as Stevo's loss should have lowered the bar instead.

Lets face it Indie if we win 10 games it wont matter whether the bar was raised or lowered it will just need to be bloody big because we will all be in there celebrating

True ... save that there'll be those who blame Pagan for us sliding down the draft order. Despite the clear direction from Pratt that he is to produce 10 wins, Pagan will be accused of selfishness.

If we win against the Hawks, we'll only need to win half of our games to make Pratt's cut. I reckon we'll go pretty close.

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Cheats never prosper (except in the AFL)

From the article title I thought it referred to a finish in the 8!

I reckon we can win ten. We're only three games away from the 8 and there are a couple of teams above us who shouldn't be, or won't be for long ... we should beat
Freo (R12)
The Ds (R13 & 22)
The Aints (R16)
OK that's only 8. That leaves room for two upsets.

"You can do it!"

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[Sam Jacobs] looks like a 7' Lance Whitnall, and [Mitch Robinson] looks like a 4' Lance Whitnall
(The SEN team during the Carlton v Cats 2009 pre-season match)

Sir Richard didn't mention anything related to DP saving his job.

He set an expectation of what he considers as acceptable/enjoyable/satisfying.

I don't believe that Dick would be satisfied with anything but finals and flags.

He knew there was a possibility we may only win 3 or 4 games; Kerna suggested 4.

DP will keep his job until Dick and his team find the 'best' coach for the job (who would take it). That 'best' coach may be contracted to the end of 2008 or 2009, so he may decide to wait till then unless another pops up from left field.

I believe Dick is in constant recruitment mode; he always seeks the best to be the best and stay there.

If DP had only 2 wins by round 15 and the players weren't responding to him, that's when I would expect Ratten to step into the coach's shoes.

5 years of Pagan is enough; it's usually enough for most coaches (Sheedy excluded), so I suggest he's had his time and may or may not coach a 6th season at Carlton.

I don't put the blame for the last 5 year entirely on DP. He probably accounted for 20%; too many other influences. He at least cleaned out the joint as, but then again he probably forced a few early retirements.

DP has served his time at Carlton; only a flag could salvage the uncomfortable relationship between DP and Carlton.

There's young coaches chomping at the bit who are considered coaching material, and I'm sure they are considered strongly by Dick and his team. It makes sense : quality young coach for a quality young team. New ideas, further development, and a game plan so unique it may expedite our speed to a flag.

Longmire
Bond

Just my thoughts.

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Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

Rome wasn't built in a day but it's also been 5 years. He taken 5 years to work this game plan out, and even then he probably had help. 3 weeks ago we bemoaned the fact he played all his guys out of position stifling their developement. We were scathing recently of his inspid coaching effort against St.Kilda when even the ABC commentators said bluntly that he was no the man to take Carlton forward or develop them. Players will always develop due to age, experience of simply training and playing, as well as maturity. That can happen in spite of the coach. How they develop s a team is the key. The last 2 weeks sides have allowed us to play our free-flowing, shoot-out type game. We play sides now that will close us down, flood back and create stoppages where they can. If we go man-on-man we may end up with that ridiculous 9-on-9 situation in our forward 50 as we did against St.Kilda. Can Denis adjust when different tactics are required? 5 years have shown us that he's too stubborn to change too quickly. We'll see what happens in the next few weeks when we play Hawks and the Swans, the ultimate shut down sides. We may look exciting now but we've only just now won 2 in a row, the first time since 2004. We've won 11 from 55 since 2004. It's taken a supposedly great coach 5 years to work out how we should be playing. I'd be most happy to get rid of him at the end of the year.

I can understand supporters getting apprehensive about winning more games than expected,and subsequently moving down the draft selection list. But what about Kade Simpson (pick 40 something) and Brad Fisher (pick 70 something), these blokes are now gun players. They were picked when we were kicked out of the drafts first 2 rounds. Apart from highlighting what a great job shane osullivan did , it also illustrates the best talent isn,t necessarily in the first five or six. I want us to win our fair share, redevelop a winning culture and then let the recruiters do their job.

MC, you'll find that the issues surrounding priority picks and draft picks have been fully discussed in the tanking thread. Have a look at the POW sticky and you'll see the link there.

Not that you shouldn't raise this issue, but my tip is that you'll be locked in a rather long debate before too long

Thanks Indie Im new at this.

And if it wasnt for Melbourne picking up Gary Moorcroft at pick 42, Pagan the short sighted coach that he is would have picked him up instead of Simpson.

Sorry murray, but did Murphy and Gibbs go at pick 40 something and pick 60 something, also?

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You can just smell that fresh Carlton arrogance coming back into the air