A Question For Synbad

BlueMark · **Posted:** Tue May 24, 2005 12:06 pm

Synbad wrote:

Mark, i love your posts theyre very well thought through and really give me an insight to how your mind works.

I love how you ask me how long should we stay at the bottom.

My god thats an intelligent question!!!

You really made me stop and think. So i read this and i thought to myself.. BM has a vey good point!!..
How long does Synbad want us to stay at the bottom and not be a top 8 team?

So i pulled out the full sized mirror and had a very long look at myself BM.
I cannot believe that i would want us to stunt our current window of opportunity at a crack at finals footy and an outside chance of bringing the cup home to Carlton like so many other great carlton teams of the past.

You really make an excellent point Mark. The Carlton football club has the cattle to definitely play finals footy this year and next year have a real crack at a flag. I,the silly fool am advocating we just dont take a crack at our destiny.....

Now Mark... lets get serious!!!!
We are a laughing stock!!
Our list is a joke...Do you think any club fears us???
We all rocked up to the last game EVER at our spiritual home. Denis gave the players an impassioned plea for guts, backing each other up.. skill.. to reflect on past Carlton teams and past glories at our stomping ground!!!
We were smashed!!!!
Down without a real yelp!!!!
Not much out there....the supporters wanted to see something... instead they saw the end of the park and what seems like the end of greatness out on the field.

The only guy at the edge of their seat was you!!!!!Hypervenilating !!!.. id love to tale a peek at your fingernails..

If you dont want to watch Carlton lose i suggest you go and play 'skirmish' on weekends because whether you like it or not were not going to win too many.

We simply dont have the list!!.

Our senior players are either past their best or not interested!!!.

We lack true leadership.!!!!(Nicholls epitomised leadership... )

Ill just repeat this again Mark.....
In order to give your self a chance at winning GREATNESS and taking the club back to its RIGHTFUL P LACE youre NOT going to do it with the bulk of those players.

Which leads me to what we have to do....

What we have to do Mark... is bring in ELITE players. I really dont know if you watch the TAC... but the best chance of finding yourself TRUE elite talent is inside the first few picks. Get a crack of two of these in the top 4 and you give yourself a chance of building cornerstones into the future.
Cornerstones to add to Walker and one or two others... Cornerstones that will compete with each other for rising star nomination.. then Rising star awards.. then cement spots... then BOGs...grow bodies... Brownlows and John Nicholls medals... then CAPTAINCY/LEADERSHIP AND PREMIERSHIPS!!!!!
Cornerstones of the future are players like Jesaulenko, Nicholls, Kernahan,Walls, Johnston etc.
Do you still wake up on a saturday morning Mark and catch a tram into the city and go shopping at Myers till 12.15 with the store security herding you out before close 12.30 pm., were you catch a tram onto Princess Park watch the ressies . Then at 2 pm the game begins and the bluebaggers are kicking to the Robert Heatley Stand end where we bang on 12 in another typical Carlton premiership quarter?
You know... ??? The Southbys, Doulls, Walls, Nicholls, Jesaulenkos, Buckleys, Johnstons, Harmes,Silvagnis (Steve and Serge) Jacksons, Lofts, Crosswells, Gallaghers, Keoghs,Collins,Kernahans, Motleys,Bostustows, Bradleys,Koutofides,Rhys Jones,Williams,Browns,Sextons,Deans, Meldrums, Jones,Maddens,Glascotts,Ashmans,Naleys, Blackwells,Hunters,Maclures,Armstrongs, Austins,Maylins.... I can go on and on Mark... CHAMPIONS, LEADERS, SUPERSTARS and FREAKS.
All those blokes came in through the zone system or we pulled a string here and there to bring them to the club... thos days are gone Mark...!!!!!
The ONLY way to bring in talent these days is to draft them from the SAME POOL as everyone else. So mathematics tell you its pretty hard to bring in the true elite players into the club unless you have FIRST CRACK!!!!... or everyone else is just dumb!!!!!

...Are you following Mark or is this too hard to follow???

Forget what you and i grew up with . Its a different era!!.. The AFL have now succeeded in homogenising everything ... The grounds are the same ... the players are from the same talent pool.. so you cant farm an area like the rich Bendigo and Carlton precincts... the only thing that is different from one club to the next is the colour of the jumper.
Dannyboy was right when he said the AFL dont care about Carlton and Collingwood...theyre more interested in a succesful Sydeny and TV rights... theyre interested in having every club with a chance to win a flag every 16 years and a woodenspoon in that time too...
There is no more real culture... its being stripped away!!!
Welcome to the future where its all packaged up for footy and no warts,, no old smelly lockers... its just all sanitised.
There is still a small opportunity to play 'the game' pinch the player or two you need to help Walker to make the difference.. before they close that loophole up too.when that happens it will be one premiership each 16 years on average...which means for every team that wins it twice there will be a team that misses out on that cycle.

What you have to do now is draft a kid... and you have to wait your turn to draft the kid. So when you get pick 9 in a draft.. you have to wait for the bottom 3 clubs to take the best 6 players (like what happened last year) then you wait for the other 2 sides below you take their pick.. and THEN...and only THEN!!!!..can you take a pick... by that time the standouts are gone... and you pick up Russell and not FRANKLIN AND ROUGHEAD.,.(No offence to Russell but lets call a spade a spade here).. you ALSO miss out on a player from the PSD Mark... which then means.. that youre not actually going forwards. Then what happens Mark is that if you do have any good older players left theyre gone, retired and not replaced by another Kouta... so youre further behind the eight ball.

If Kouta was replaced with a Franklin or a Deledio.. youre a chance to start taking steps forward again... if he is replaced with a Vance or a Massie... well you get my drift... (I hope)..

At the end of the day Mark... it is better to have a good list than not have a good list.
Common sense would suggest that.
the only person ive ever heard to say they dont want the best list possible is YOU!!!!

So how long does it take us to find a good list? One that will make us competitive.. Im not talking about on the scoreboard Mark.. Im talking about the big picture. A flag.. Yiu know???One of those sixteen things they flew out in the middle of the park on saturday... or have you forgotten what winning REALLY MEANS???
The reason why it took a half an hour or so to get through the cermemony that reflected what and who the Carlton Football Club were about and should be about... and not 20 seconds...
Wanna be a another Geelong, Swans, Roys,Collingwood,StKilda??? Or do you want a chance to see us REALLY WIN!!!... by REALLY WINNING we are talking top four.. and not just top four but a solid top four with a sustained window of opportunity at PREMIERSHIPS.. which is what were all about at Carlton.Its the thing that we used to do better than everybody else.
We used to do it better than everybody else because we understood what needed to be done.

You talk about winning as if its about winning one from 3 games... thats just ridiculous!!!!.. thats small mindedness.. thats just petty and oblivious to what winning REALLY means.
Id hate for us to be an also ran.... win the odd game.. we go and have a wank over it on TC... only to come down with a thud the next week.Caught in no man`s land. North Melbourne style.
Im patient.. i can wait!! i know it will take time to rebuild with a REAL chance of REALLY WINNING what counts.

I have alot more patience for that than being battlers for the next twenty years because we didnt take the real telent over a couple of years and it cost us for several years.

Lets face it Mark, we have the WORST list in the AFL.. we can win 5 1/2 or 6 or evven 7.. instead of 5 and PP... but each week we win MEANINGLESS games to get to 6 or 7 wins.. were actually passing through ANOTHER BLACK FRIDAY!!!!... and costing ourselves what we lost that night.

Im dont count winning nothing games that actually cost us real long term success as wins... WINNING FOR ME IS OUR NEXT PREMIERSHIP!!!... if we dont win a premiership again in my lifetime id still like to think of Carlton as a club that had a real chance to win one.. not being what NORTH MELBOURNE is because they cant have crap years in case they collapse.. forever in perpetual nothingness.Winning just enough games to be outside of the eight but not low enough to really go forward!!!

See winning for you is small picture..winning for me is big picture befitting THE GREATEST FOOTBALL CLUB IN AUSTRALIA..... THE CARLTON FOOTBALL CLUB!!!!

Look at the legends from yesteryear out there saturday and look at where were at and where we have to go....

Im not satisfied with winning the odd arsey game by a point that ultimately costs us Mark... you are... it makes you feel all warm and fuzzy inside....

Either way , my suggestion to you is you go find something else to do on your weekends... we wont be winning many games in the short and mid to long terms if we dont get smart.... we wont be winning any games in the short term if we do.

Do you get what winning is for me and what winning is for you Mark??

See i think you have a loser mentality!!!!
,,, happy wollowing in rolling around in the mud of mediocrity clinging onto nothing but hope... the hope that enough crap players will turn into the types of legends that studded our club for the last 40 years..... a golden era .

Play the kids... delist the players who dont have their heart in it or arent good enough... and look to the future.to a premiership and not to a day to day survival

Its shouldnt be the 16 premierships that drives us it should the 17th...and beyond...

I hate a losers mentality....!!!!!
Losers as in perrenial nothingness.....

Still did not answer the question, lots of ramble, cheaps shots etc. But I still do not what the grand plan is. How long do you want us to stay on the bottom. How long to do you want us to lose for for before we are allowed to start winning?

Had a couple of chats on the ph yesterday and learnt more about the grand plan in five minutes from them than I have in 3 years of rubbish from you. The consenus I got from these people who know more about football then you and I is that the team in general have lost confidence and are forgetting to follow instruction. Dumb football was the term that came up more than once.

Agree play the kids give them experience, cut 'em slack when they make mistakes but also encourage them to win when the oppotunity presents.

Agree our middle tier is not performing stated as much a few weeks ago, in fact said last year if half of them stood up and became longterm players I would be suprised.

But you see Synbad the difference is between you and I is this. You like to mock and destroy things, disparage people and whinge about how hopeless the team and certain players are. You like to give up, surrender.
You lack belief. Reminds me a bit of our team at the moment. Negativity is like a cancer that can spread though a club and you spread the virus wherever and whenever you can.
Maybe that is why some are starting to avoid you at the moment

When I am confronted by a problem in my life I like to surround myself with people who are positive, who look at a problem and bring resourses to it, who work hard to overcome it. There is a real satisfaction in that

But in a couple of years when we are playing well you will be the first to step up and claim the credit, whingers always do. Those who actually did the hard yards will sit back and just smile.

It is easy to be a knocker Synbad, much much harder to be a doer.

Which one are you?

BlueWorld · **Joined:** Mon Feb 28, 2005 4:28 pm **Posts:** 3768

Tanking and being rewarded with high draft picks is the easy way. The St K way. What about addressing the issues of the current players or are we planning on casting them all aside, despite the efforts we've put into them to try to develop them into decent AFL players.

BlueMark · **Posted:** Tue May 24, 2005 12:49 pm

To be honest Synbads point is this

We are woeful and will need to sit at the bottom of the ladder for a couple of years to rebuild. It is a valid arguement and one well worth debating.

It is all the other rubbish that he goes on with that gets up my nose.

Elwood Blues1 · **Joined:** Mon Feb 28, 2005 9:10 am **Posts:** 4827

I think Synbad is being a realist..it has nothing to do with being negative...its telling it like it is and some of us dont want to hear it...
We will be down for a while if we dont stop pretending and burying our heads in the sand....
I dont agree with everything Synbad says especially tanking as a method but I understand the logic of it and why it has been suggested....if you are going to bag him and pursue him over his methods to fix the problem at least offer an alternative..
These threads day after day with the same question..Synbad tell us your plan" how long to we need to bottom out....tell us Synbad "your not answering the question.

He has answered the questions.....
The list is shite
Trade/sack overpaid non performers
We need elite players
Top draft picks = Top players =elite
Method is finish bottom by lets say uncoventional means.
How long do we bottom out?...obvious I would have thought..till we get what we need.

Thats his plan or how I understand what he has written....lets hear some alternatives ...

BlueMark · **Posted:** Tue May 24, 2005 1:37 pm

Elwood Blues1 wrote:

I think Synbad is being a realist..it has nothing to do with being negative...its telling it like it is and some of us dont want to hear it...
We will be down for a while if we dont stop pretending and burying our heads in the sand....
I dont agree with everything Synbad says especially tanking as a method but I understand the logic of it and why it has been suggested....if you are going to bag him and pursue him over his methods to fix the problem at least offer an alternative..
These threads day after day with the same question..Synbad tell us your plan" how long to we need to bottom out....tell us Synbad "your not answering the question.

He has answered the questions.....
The list is shite
Trade/sack overpaid non performers
We need elite players
Top draft picks = Top players =elite
Method is finish bottom by lets say uncoventional means.
How long do we bottom out?...obvious I would have thought..till we get what we need.

Thats his plan or how I understand what he has written....lets hear some alternatives ...

You have answered my question in one paragraph, Synbad never has, preferring to rant and rave and cast dispersions upon players and other posters. And his 'plan' is open to debate and alternatives have been presented. He and other 'realists' do not want to consider them, much perfering to insult and tear apart others because we can not have open debate can we?

verbs · **Posted:** Tue May 24, 2005 1:44 pm

I think people have completely missed Mark's point. I mean, come on, you think he doesn't understand the way the system work? All he's saying is "we are what we are" which ultimately is a complete realist point of view.

It's all about attitude: those who watch the footy wanting Carlton to win and those who watch the footy wanting Carlton to lose.

The second group of people, of which Mark is not one, point at the system and say that's how you win a premiership. That's fine in theory, but theories are rarely 100% fool-proof. Indeed, the thoery is yet to be proven. Most of the teams everyone is putting forward (StKilda, Geelong and to a lesser extent Melbourne and Richmond) have only had short stays at the bottom of the ladder anyway (no more than three years of dead set uselessness max) and none of them have won the damn thing yet either.

As with most things in life, there are many complex paths. Unfortunately for us there isn't a definitive blueprint for winning a premiership. We can follow. There's the "get as many top draft picks as possible" theory, which has its own pitfalls (some players just don't make it, some draft years can be very weak, other teams also will perform badly) but it is very possible we'll still be here in 25 years without a premiership.

At the end of the day, it all comes down to how much you want to enjoy the footy. And only you can decide that.

BlueMark · **Posted:** Tue May 24, 2005 1:47 pm

Well put Verbs,

Sums up three years of arguements. And yes I am definatly as you wrote.

And that our next Premiership will be won on the back of using the draft coupled with working to continually improve ( thats means trying to win games). And that process never ends.

steve · **Posted:** Tue May 24, 2005 2:54 pm

There's also a culture issue here. If you throw the kids to wolves, and let them get hammered every week, sure you might get a few nice picks over the next couple of years, but you might also end up with some talent that:

a) Is used to losing
b) Doesn't believe that sometimes effort is more important than ability
c) Doesn't know how to win hard games/finals

A winning culture is essential, it was evident in all the great sides IMO. I'm a realist, and yes we do need more talent, but we have to be very careful about how the kids are developed. Throwing them all in together will be counterproductive. Yes, play them, but be careful about how it is done.

fevolaaaa · **Posted:** Tue May 24, 2005 2:57 pm

For the first time ever I've almost gone over to the Synbad camp. It's not enjoyable

Elwood Blues1 · **Joined:** Mon Feb 28, 2005 9:10 am **Posts:** 4827

Dont disagree that using the draft, and working hard is the way to go..

Steve..effort sometimes will get you over the line but its hard to have every player at 100% every week ...you need a Nathan Brown who can do bugger all for most of the game and then kick five in a quarter.
Pagan got a lot of effort from some handy players last year but its hard for the handy/average player to do it all the time....
We dont have the number of elite players who can do the cameo and win us the game..Fev aside...

Coach B · **Joined:** Mon May 23, 2005 9:26 am **Posts:** 88

That's fine in theory, but theories are rarely 100% fool-proof. Indeed, the thoery is yet to be proven. Most of the teams everyone is putting forward (StKilda, Geelong and to a lesser extent Melbourne and Richmond) have only had short stays at the bottom of the ladder anyway (no more than three years of dead set uselessness max) and none of them have won the damn thing yet either.

Quite right, the theory of winning flags with draft picks has yet to be proven...the last four flags have been won by teams that got the advantage of major extraordinary consessional picks...the Lions would never have been as dominant without the Fitzroy merger and Port had players withhold themselves from drafts so they could be picked up under the rules admitting them to the competition...In fact, you could also go back to the Crows and Eagles premership years and suggest that the allocation of talent to those clubs at the time they were admitted to the league were overly generous. To my way of thinking, it has been the one off decisions that the AFL has made that have skewed the results. The only thing we do know is that if you can get an unfair talent advantage you can win flags...and my friends that is one thing that Carlton has always known!!!

CB :lol:

camel · **Posted:** Tue May 24, 2005 5:59 pm

AGRO wrote:

King Leonidas wrote:

AGRO wrote:

Thanks Jarusa - I was busy typing my repsonse (saying that I hope Jarusa can shed some light here :oops:

).

My point Leonidas (and might I add what a glorious loser Leonidas was :wink:

) is that you need lower draft picks to improve your list - finishing 10th with Picks 7 and Picks 19 is not going to help you QUICKLY. :wink:

Do you always have to be a condescending halfwit, just curious.

Piene sto hamopisto. :wink:

By the way is Con Descending your real name. :lol:

AGRO I don't know what that says, and I don't think I really want to know. Nor would I encourage posters replying to each other in a second language.

Shakin77 · **Posted:** Tue May 24, 2005 6:15 pm

It's a crap idea to tank the season.

Play the kids. Don't have a problem with that.

But take a look at the best midfield in the comp.

Ben Cousins - Father Son.
Michael Braun - Pick 53
Chad Fletcher - Rookie Elevated
Andrew Embley - Pick 57
Dean Cox - Rookie Elevated
Daniel Kerr - Pick 18
Chris Judd - Pick 3

1 first round draft pick and a father son. The rest? Brilliant Recruiting.

We have to become pro-active and become the leader off the field in recruitment to turn this corner. Find the next Chad Fletcher, Dean Cox, Shane Tuck, Bret Thornton.

Let's become innovative and break the recruitment model. Invest in recruitment. It's the area that we seem to be bottom of the ladder

phoenix johnson · **Posted:** Tue May 24, 2005 6:19 pm

I reckon all of our rookies have the potential to make the AFL grade.
I also believe we have the best rookie list in the AFL at the moment.

molsey · **Posted:** Tue May 24, 2005 6:23 pm

phoenix johnson wrote:

I reckon all of our rookies have the potential to make the AFL grade.
I also believe we have the best rookie list in the AFL at the moment.

Jessie ?

BigBrahminBoss · **Joined:** Tue Mar 01, 2005 9:39 pm **Posts:** 38

Synbad wrote:

Damn! I thought to myself watching the parade of past champions over the weekend.. how we took champions for granted.
How we had so many of them....at the same time at the same place and how we sorely lack them right now. Also, how our supporters seem to think players like Carazzo will ever be a JEsaulenko or a Johnston.
He might be a Phil Maylin or a Ricey...remains to be seen (very good footballers... but we also had a heap of champions and leaders leading the way)

You have really hit gold there Synbad, it sums our plight quite accurately. We have a plethora of average players who need those star key position players to not only set the benchmark of what is expected, but bring them into the game as well. Players like Walker, Bentick & Simpson etc would be far more influential if there was a Sticks or Harry in the team to pave the way. Can you imagine what Fevola might achieve if he was able to play alongside Sticks too ?? Brad Pearce was able to carve out a small reputation and play in a premiership team having Sticks next to him, and Fevola has a lot more to offer than Pearce ever did.

The biggest problem Carlton supporters have is that they grossly over-rate the players, especially the ones currently on the list. If Carrazzo was to turn out as good as Jesaulenko or Johnston, we'd all be in raptures, but the simple fact is that it's highly unlikely that'll happen. He's trying to make it at his second club and isn't exactly grabbing the games by the scruff of the neck either.

Time to find, whether by conventional means or not, some genuine key position talent that you can build a team around. The best way to do so under the current system is to get the lowest numbered picks that is physically possible, this opens up the opportunity of having a better chance of taking what should be a proven performer. To get the good picks, some people may have to swallow their pride and accept some more pain.

The best big men in the country would make a huge difference to our team, Synbad is putting up a very plausible way of achieving that.

phoenix johnson · **Posted:** Tue May 24, 2005 7:18 pm

molsey wrote:

phoenix johnson wrote:

I reckon all of our rookies have the potential to make the AFL grade.
I also believe we have the best rookie list in the AFL at the moment.

Jessie ?

Becker, Batson, Setanta and Aisake.
Reckon Plemmo will get the chop at seasons end.

tap in 79 · **Joined:** Fri Mar 04, 2005 10:58 am **Posts:** 2129

good point shakin 77.

I would much prefer Carlton to finish 3rd or 4th last than last.
Keep winning that is what i want.

Lets have a look at the premiership winning teams over the last decade or so. None have finished last and picked up priority picks as far as i can see - in fact it had more to do with patience and clever recruiting.

1992 - eagles -

had never finished last in the previous 5 years. good recruiting enabled them to build a team. wasn't matera recruited at pick 80 or something?

1993 - Essendon*

good recruiting and salary cap cheating enabled them to win.
eg wanganeen at pick 11 or 12 a few years prior. never finished last in the previous 5 years.

1994 - eagles - ditto as above(1992)

1995 - carlton - good recruiting. build team ethos etc.

1996 - north - hadn't finished last in previous 5 years. lowest position was
had finished 12th/3rd/3rd/3rd and 1st.

1997- adelaide had never finished last in previous 5 years. again good recruiting, and the input of malcolm blight turned them around.
had finished 9th, 3rd, 11th, 11th,12th and then first.

etc etc.

good recruiting is the common thread... and a set of priority picks doesn't necessary mean ultimate success based on what has happened so far.

camel · **Posted:** Wed May 25, 2005 8:58 am

Is getting a guy at #70+ such as a Hird, or Matera, really good recruiting, or just luck that a hunch paid off? While there will always be the odd late pick Cinderella, there's probably a handful of duds picked up at the same number as well.

Jarusa · **Joined:** Sat Feb 26, 2005 9:00 am **Posts:** 23123

camelboy wrote:

Is getting a guy at #70+ such as a Hird, or Matera, really good recruiting, or just luck that a hunch paid off? While there will always be the odd late pick Cinderella, there's probably a handful of duds picked up at the same number as well.

I think it is good recruiting late in the first round, and the second round of the draft that is more likely to help clubs these days. The days of superstars being picked up in the 70's are most likely gone.

I reckon these types of picks have moved more into the second or third round. It is still possible for good recruiters to pick up very good players after the waters become murky. 2nd and 3rd round picks are really where recruiters should be earning their money.

A Question For Synbad

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