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PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 12:37 pm 
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Harry Vallence

Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2007 7:28 am
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Sydney Blue wrote:
I just want to turn on the tele and watch the side win on a regular basis - not asking much just something better that 1 win every 4 weeks

If we win 8-10 this year, it seems that everybody will be happy then ;-)


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2007 12:40 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko

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Indie wrote:
Sydney Blue wrote:
I just want to turn on the tele and watch the side win on a regular basis - not asking much just something better that 1 win every 4 weeks

If we win 8-10 this year, it seems that everybody will be happy then ;-)



I will :lol:

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2007 8:19 am 
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John Nicholls
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Blue Vain wrote:
I love it how we ride the waves with wins and losses.
If we have a rare win, opinions change and Pagan can stay. If we suffer a loss, its "on your bike Denis".

At the end of last season some of Denis' greatest allies thought he should move on. Come the Wizzer Cup, he's the messiah! :lol:

In my opinion, Pagan should be judged at the end of the year. I dont ride the highs and lows as much as some but prefer to make judgements over his time at Carlton.

Has he been a good list manager? Definitely not in my opinion but he is improving markedly.

Has he been an astute tactician and educated our players to adapt to varying tactics? Not a chance in the first 3 years but we are seeing improvement.

Has he now shown a willingness to adapt and change his ways?
This is the interesting point. Whether it be by his own initiative or driven completely by the board, Pagan is evolving and changing for the better.
Training is a huge improvement. Drills focussing on transition and setting up plays. A far cry from the basic nonsense the players were served up the first 3 years.

As I've stated all along the wins and losses shouldnt be the only determining factor. The test will also be how our coaching panel and players adjust to the impending tactics.
Teams will not allow us to play the game on our own terms if it gives us the 4 points. As we've seen in previous Wizzer Cup campaigns, opposition teams will allow us to play how we want as they have their own structures to fine tune.
As soon as the real stuff comes along, we are muted.

If we play a largely offensive game which gives us a couple of wins, our opponents will act.
What tactics will they use? More numbers in our back half, runners to carry the ball out, isolating our backs, taking our taggers into our forward line to create congestion will all possibly occur.
How will the coaches and players react?
That will be our sign of our improvement as a team. Previously we've had no plan B.
It is a sign of the lack of development in the decision making processes of our players. That will be the point of judgement IMO.
If our players have improving decision making skills.
If our youngsters are improving their general footballing skills under our coaching panel, not just the number ones.

A constant concern has been that we go into games with a set plan and if our opponents have a strategy to counter it, we have no options. Good teams make decisions during games. They can react and adapt. It is a sign that the players have been well versed in the varying tactics of football and know how and when to change.
It also shows that the coaches have an understanding of the impending tactics and believe they have taught the players to be flexible and adaptable.

That will be a tick for Pagan if we can now adapt. Previously we have been totally inflexible.
The next 4 games will tell us a lot.


BV - that is the best summation of where we are at a club on field I have seen! Excellent! This needs to be read every four weeks or so just to keep things in persective - POW right there!

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2007 11:22 am 
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Bob Chitty
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Taff wrote:
Blue Vain wrote:
I love it how we ride the waves with wins and losses.
If we have a rare win, opinions change and Pagan can stay. If we suffer a loss, its "on your bike Denis".

At the end of last season some of Denis' greatest allies thought he should move on. Come the Wizzer Cup, he's the messiah! :lol:

In my opinion, Pagan should be judged at the end of the year. I dont ride the highs and lows as much as some but prefer to make judgements over his time at Carlton.

Has he been a good list manager? Definitely not in my opinion but he is improving markedly.

Has he been an astute tactician and educated our players to adapt to varying tactics? Not a chance in the first 3 years but we are seeing improvement.

Has he now shown a willingness to adapt and change his ways?
This is the interesting point. Whether it be by his own initiative or driven completely by the board, Pagan is evolving and changing for the better.
Training is a huge improvement. Drills focussing on transition and setting up plays. A far cry from the basic nonsense the players were served up the first 3 years.

As I've stated all along the wins and losses shouldnt be the only determining factor. The test will also be how our coaching panel and players adjust to the impending tactics.
Teams will not allow us to play the game on our own terms if it gives us the 4 points. As we've seen in previous Wizzer Cup campaigns, opposition teams will allow us to play how we want as they have their own structures to fine tune.
As soon as the real stuff comes along, we are muted.

If we play a largely offensive game which gives us a couple of wins, our opponents will act.
What tactics will they use? More numbers in our back half, runners to carry the ball out, isolating our backs, taking our taggers into our forward line to create congestion will all possibly occur.
How will the coaches and players react?
That will be our sign of our improvement as a team. Previously we've had no plan B.
It is a sign of the lack of development in the decision making processes of our players. That will be the point of judgement IMO.
If our players have improving decision making skills.
If our youngsters are improving their general footballing skills under our coaching panel, not just the number ones.

A constant concern has been that we go into games with a set plan and if our opponents have a strategy to counter it, we have no options. Good teams make decisions during games. They can react and adapt. It is a sign that the players have been well versed in the varying tactics of football and know how and when to change.
It also shows that the coaches have an understanding of the impending tactics and believe they have taught the players to be flexible and adaptable.

That will be a tick for Pagan if we can now adapt. Previously we have been totally inflexible.
The next 4 games will tell us a lot.


BV - that is the best summation of where we are at a club on field I have seen! Excellent! This needs to be read every four weeks or so just to keep things in persective - POW right there!


I'll second that Taff.

Brilliantly put BV, I think even Indie would find this argument hard to counteract :)


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2007 1:51 pm 
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Harry Vallence

Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2007 7:28 am
Posts: 1073
You must have missed my post in which I said that BV's post was a good one.

There's no need to counteract arguments. It's to everyone's advantage if good points are made, and the last thing anyone should want is to suppress them.

After all, the real story is what the club's going to do, and that will depend on how things develop in the 2nd half of the year. Are we at the peak of our season with only disappointment to follow? If so, Pagan's gone. Will the win over the Doggies foreshadow strong performances? If so, Pagan's stocks will rise as they have with Sheedy over the last few weeks.

But it won't be a simple question of wins and losses. As BV notes, there will be a number of areas that will be analysed in making decisions at the end of the year. We might disagree on some (particularly on whether alternative game plans should be utilised), but the sorts of things suggested would be considered.

The interesting match from the point of view of the negating tactics of the opposition will be in another 5 rounds. Sydney's game is built around stifling direct footy, and the SCG is hostile to our game plan. They have also had our measure well and truly, except early last year at the TD. If ever there's going to be a change to our game plan, it will be in that game.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2007 6:30 pm 
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Harry Vallence

Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2007 7:28 am
Posts: 1073
Last night on SEN, the Ox gave a bit of a summary of his experience in Rocket's Coaches' Box last week.

He'd been given permission by Rocket to reveal the plan that unravelled in the first 10 minutes. Apparently, Eade had explained before the game began that they realised that Carlton had been in good form, and they wanted to ensure Carlton didn't get a good start. The thinking was that if Carlton stayed with them early, we'd remain in the game.

The tactic adopted was to drop a man back to prevent early scoring. But then Harris made a couple of errors and Carlton scored early. The feeling was that the pre-game planning had gone up in smoke as a result.

Certainly, the way the game unfolded bore out their concerns.

Oddly enough, Thornton in the aftermatch interview on SEN was asked about the shootout, and noted that it ended up that way but that wasn't the way it was supposed to be.

So, despite the match appearing to be a case of both teams going for broke and the Doggies paying us little heed early, that was not the case.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 12:45 pm 
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Harry Vallence

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Posts: 1073
There was an interesting comment from Stuart Dew on radio last night. I reckon it tends to support my contention that there's a benefit to focussing a team on the main game plan and preventing them from resorting to a less risky alternative plan under pressure.

He was asked about Choco's chip-chip style, and was asked whether he has to change it. Dew replied that he didn't believe that Choco sent the team out to play that style. He said that the problem was that teammates were rewarded for spreading wide for the easy sideways chip. Players with the ball would always be tempted to play safe to such an uncontested option. As teams realised that the Power was prone to giving in to that temptation, they'd concentrate on manning up the direct routes to goal, as we did, and leave them the wide options. Dew said that the players needed to resist that pressure, and refuse to kick to the wide options. He suggested that the Power players would soon realise that they weren't going to scrounge easy touches, and they'd concentrate on presented in more dangerous spots.

There have been many examples of players who have noted that their teams have failed to play to instructions and have lost their way. Way back in Rd 1, Kane Johnson said this after they'd lost the ability to move the ball forward, and instead tried to keep possession in the midfield by handpasses and chip kicks. Wallace lamented that he'd told them not to do that during the breaks, all to no avail. Pressure makes players throw out the play-book unless they are well-drilled and disciplined.

The other interesting thing was a post-game interview with Fev on MMM. He was asked about the direct style, and he explained that Pagan had asked the players whether they wanted to play one-on-one direct footy or whether they wanted to drop men back behind the ball. He said they were keen to go man-on-man. It wasn't clear whether he was saying that this was done before and in relation to the Port game, or whether it was of more general application earlier in the year. But it does seem that the players are very happy with the style, and are rising to the challenge of going head to head with their opponents.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 12:58 pm 
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Harry Vallence
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The reason why we won was due to pressure.

We forced port the chip wide....they didnt want to...we forced them to!

I also believe that Crossisca has really developed our forward line structure over the past month...Waite ,Fisher, Lappin and Whitnall are running on 4 defenders whilst Fev gets a minimum of 2 at a time.

That is good coaching...the beauty is, that in the near future...coaches will start to man up on our forwards and Fev will kick more goals.


All good!!

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 1:24 pm 
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Laurie Kerr
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Location: Beautiful 1 day, premiership the next !!
Is it possible that some of our new assistant coaches have brought some great fresh ideas to the table and that that is the dfference between this year and years past?

If so kudos to Pagan for implementing them, very sad though he could'nt come up with his own ideas.
If so it augres well for the assistant coaches and might I say Ratten in particular!

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 4:02 pm 
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Horrie Clover
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If we continue to play exciting football and end up with 7-8 wins, theres no reason why Pagan should get sacked.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 4:21 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick
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GAVROMAN wrote:
If we continue to play exciting football and end up with 7-8 wins, theres no reason why Pagan should get sacked.


To be honest..........................even if we had lost last night i still would have been happy with Pagans performance.

This style of play we are going for is proof that our list is so much better than people have given it credit for.

These past 6 games are proof of a total change in thinking from our coach with special mention to the past 3 weeks that has seen us become less fev-focused!

Not saying i want Pagan around for another contract...............but certainly credit must be given!

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 9:30 pm 
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Harry Vallence

Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2007 9:52 pm
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I've swung,let DP finish off the year. :-D

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 10:19 pm 
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Bert Deacon
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Location: In the coach's box
Blue Vain wrote:
I love it how we ride the waves with wins and losses.
If we have a rare win, opinions change and Pagan can stay. If we suffer a loss, its "on your bike Denis".

At the end of last season some of Denis' greatest allies thought he should move on. Come the Wizzer Cup, he's the messiah! :lol:

In my opinion, Pagan should be judged at the end of the year. I dont ride the highs and lows as much as some but prefer to make judgements over his time at Carlton.

Has he been a good list manager? Definitely not in my opinion but he is improving markedly.

Has he been an astute tactician and educated our players to adapt to varying tactics? Not a chance in the first 3 years but we are seeing improvement.

Has he now shown a willingness to adapt and change his ways?
This is the interesting point. Whether it be by his own initiative or driven completely by the board, Pagan is evolving and changing for the better.
Training is a huge improvement. Drills focussing on transition and setting up plays. A far cry from the basic nonsense the players were served up the first 3 years.

As I've stated all along the wins and losses shouldnt be the only determining factor. The test will also be how our coaching panel and players adjust to the impending tactics.
Teams will not allow us to play the game on our own terms if it gives us the 4 points. As we've seen in previous Wizzer Cup campaigns, opposition teams will allow us to play how we want as they have their own structures to fine tune.
As soon as the real stuff comes along, we are muted.

If we play a largely offensive game which gives us a couple of wins, our opponents will act.
What tactics will they use? More numbers in our back half, runners to carry the ball out, isolating our backs, taking our taggers into our forward line to create congestion will all possibly occur.
How will the coaches and players react?
That will be our sign of our improvement as a team. Previously we've had no plan B.
It is a sign of the lack of development in the decision making processes of our players. That will be the point of judgement IMO.
If our players have improving decision making skills.
If our youngsters are improving their general footballing skills under our coaching panel, not just the number ones.

A constant concern has been that we go into games with a set plan and if our opponents have a strategy to counter it, we have no options. Good teams make decisions during games. They can react and adapt. It is a sign that the players have been well versed in the varying tactics of football and know how and when to change.
It also shows that the coaches have an understanding of the impending tactics and believe they have taught the players to be flexible and adaptable.

That will be a tick for Pagan if we can now adapt. Previously we have been totally inflexible.
The next 4 games will tell us a lot.


BV, agree with most of your post, particulalry where we are implementing plays which gives us more structure in terms of ball movement. It's very apparent in the last few games with the midfield and forwards working together much more so than earlier in the year (particularly the St.Kilda game).

This week against Hawthorn will be the ulitmate test of what you are putting forward, as they will attempt to make the game a war of attrition. I believe what we have now is the running power to 'outstay' these sides and continue to attack, particulalry with the structural changes of the last frew weeks. If we can outrun the Bulldogs then it's fair to assume we can outrun anybody. Interesting that we have been beaten in contested footy two weeks in a row but still won, considering it has been Pagan's mantra previously that his sides win contested ball. If Pagan is taking on new ideas from Ratts, Crosisca et al then that is very smart, sign of very good management.

I would argue that we continue to attack, even if say we are 4-5 goals down to the Hawks in the second quarter on Friday night. That's our best chance of winning, not sure what Plan B or Plan C would be apart from trying to slow play down, which then plays into the hands of Clarkson.

The next 3 rounds we play Freo, Melbourne and Sydney. Interesting mix of matches - trying to all out attack on the SCG will be a huge challenge. I just love the fact all commentators, footy watchers etc. are excited by OUR brand of football, and I hope we win our next four matches, for Carlton's and also for the competitions sake. Who would have thought six weeks ago ......

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 10:34 pm 
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Harry Vallence

Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2007 9:52 pm
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Location: THE BEACH
Did anyone hear Andrew Jarman on SEN today?Complete nutter,reckons we,ll win a flag within 5 years.Said there's only 4 teams he'd watch,Blues,Cats,Doggies&Pies!
He also said that anyone who thought DP wasn't the right man for the job should "GO AND GET STUFFED!!!"
Classic radio,did anyone else hear it?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 10:57 am 
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Wayne Johnston
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Mark J wrote:
Did anyone hear Andrew Jarman on SEN today?Complete nutter,reckons we,ll win a flag within 5 years.Said there's only 4 teams he'd watch,Blues,Cats,Doggies&Pies!
He also said that anyone who thought DP wasn't the right man for the job should "GO AND GET STUFFED!!!"


Well I'll be stuffed! :-D






Braddles :wink:

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 Post subject: Jimmy Hird ?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2007 12:29 pm 
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Craig Bradley
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If Denis Pagan were to be replaced at seasons end,and I don't necessarily think he should be, Buckley and Voss seem to be the flavour of the month. Their credentials are excellent but so to are those of a bloke named James Hird . Whether as Senior coach coach with a beefed up support team or as an assistant, he could only be a plus for the Blues. He may not be interested but surely it would be worth sounding him out.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2007 1:43 pm 
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Craig Bradley
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Location: Within the Tao except when I am here.
Personally I think we should wait until either Paul Roos or Whoosa are out of contract and chase them. Not keen on either Bucks or Voss until they have had some assistant experience As for other posible candidates coming up at years end, not keen on any of the possible 'coaches out of a job'

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2007 1:51 pm 
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Harry Vallence

Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2007 1:39 pm
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BlueMark wrote:
Personally I think we should wait until either Paul Roos or Whoosa are out of contract and chase them. Not keen on either Bucks or Voss until they have had some assistant experience As for other posible candidates coming up at years end, not keen on any of the possible 'coaches out of a job'


Based on that criteria then Clarkson would have never got a job, yet I would take him as our coach in a heartbeat. Fortune favors the brave.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2007 2:35 pm 
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Craig Bradley
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Steve_C7 wrote:
BlueMark wrote:
Personally I think we should wait until either Paul Roos or Whoosa are out of contract and chase them. Not keen on either Bucks or Voss until they have had some assistant experience As for other posible candidates coming up at years end, not keen on any of the possible 'coaches out of a job'


Based on that criteria then Clarkson would have never got a job, yet I would take him as our coach in a heartbeat. Fortune favors the brave.


or you could end up with another Tim Watson and be set back years.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2007 2:38 pm 
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Ken Hunter
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Sorry but I don't want that smug "I am the best" Buckley anywhere near our club.

He is not a team player and struggled for years to get on with his peers over at pie land.

No thanks.


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