Your suggestion we play "shoot out" unaccountable footy is wrong.

After the win over the Bulldogs, MMM interviewed Thornton IIRC and suggested that the shoot-out was attractive to watch, but Thornton said that wasn't the way it was planned - it just turned out that way. The way I read that was that they'd hoped to restrict the Bulldogs scoring more than they had.

Our defence is a work-in-progress. It will improve greatly as players such as Bower, Setanta, Flint and Anderson come on.

In fact our style is one of quick and direct delivery into the forward line to avoid numbers dropping back. But to suggest that our style, whatever you wish to call it, is unaccountable couldn't be further from the truth. Everyone knows that we play a man-on-man style, and that is the very reason for the extra numbers in F50 when the other side tries to play extra men.

Man-on-man footy is what won the Eagles their flag - though naturally enough their dominant midfield and less able forwardline results in them attempting to retain possession rather than going long into F50. On the other hand, the Lions premiership sides didn't shrink from quick and direct movement into F50 because of their dominant forwards.

Mav make the most of the brilliance of Pagan while you can - His winning streaks dont usually last that long and our recent record against Port is not to flash. He is up against one of the young guns this week lets see how the old brontosaurus does.

Last three flags - Williams - Roos - Worsfold

current top five - Worsfold - Thompson- Clarkson - Malthouse - Williams

Not much room left for Jurasic Coaches anymore .

He is giving up on the kids and coaching for his future - Wait till Teague and Mclaren come off injury -

Pratts told him he wants 10 youth policy will head to the back burner for a while

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Last 8 flags - Pagan - Sheedy - Lethal - Lethal - Lethal - Williams - Roos - Worsfield

Current top 6 - Worsfold - Thompson - Clarkson - Malthouse - Craig - Sheedy

Seems to be a bit of grey hair in that lot. Almost reminds you of Jurassic Park.

Pity Pagan played Kouta, Banno, Wiggo and Skinny against the Bullies, wasn't it?

But if Pratt makes 8-10 wins the prime objective, you can hardly criticise Pagan for striving to meet it, can you? Pratt could easily have said that he wasn't worried about the number of wins because we are in a rebuilding mode. He could have made it clear that the main aim is to get games into the young players regardless of whether they merit games over older players. But he hasn't. Do you think that Pratt has stuffed up?

I love it how we ride the waves with wins and losses.
If we have a rare win, opinions change and Pagan can stay. If we suffer a loss, its "on your bike Denis".

At the end of last season some of Denis' greatest allies thought he should move on. Come the Wizzer Cup, he's the messiah!

In my opinion, Pagan should be judged at the end of the year. I dont ride the highs and lows as much as some but prefer to make judgements over his time at Carlton.

Has he been a good list manager? Definitely not in my opinion but he is improving markedly.

Has he been an astute tactician and educated our players to adapt to varying tactics? Not a chance in the first 3 years but we are seeing improvement.

Has he now shown a willingness to adapt and change his ways?
This is the interesting point. Whether it be by his own initiative or driven completely by the board, Pagan is evolving and changing for the better.
Training is a huge improvement. Drills focussing on transition and setting up plays. A far cry from the basic nonsense the players were served up the first 3 years.

As I've stated all along the wins and losses shouldnt be the only determining factor. The test will also be how our coaching panel and players adjust to the impending tactics.
Teams will not allow us to play the game on our own terms if it gives us the 4 points. As we've seen in previous Wizzer Cup campaigns, opposition teams will allow us to play how we want as they have their own structures to fine tune.
As soon as the real stuff comes along, we are muted.

If we play a largely offensive game which gives us a couple of wins, our opponents will act.
What tactics will they use? More numbers in our back half, runners to carry the ball out, isolating our backs, taking our taggers into our forward line to create congestion will all possibly occur.
How will the coaches and players react?
That will be our sign of our improvement as a team. Previously we've had no plan B.
It is a sign of the lack of development in the decision making processes of our players. That will be the point of judgement IMO.
If our players have improving decision making skills.
If our youngsters are improving their general footballing skills under our coaching panel, not just the number ones.

A constant concern has been that we go into games with a set plan and if our opponents have a strategy to counter it, we have no options. Good teams make decisions during games. They can react and adapt. It is a sign that the players have been well versed in the varying tactics of football and know how and when to change.
It also shows that the coaches have an understanding of the impending tactics and believe they have taught the players to be flexible and adaptable.

That will be a tick for Pagan if we can now adapt. Previously we have been totally inflexible.
The next 4 games will tell us a lot.

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Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.

Blue Vain that is a ripping post, 100% agree.
Opposition sides don't respect us, hence we get away with it.

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Green Shooter

If you go back far enough you might be able to add a few more dinosaurs to the list

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Surely to limit the list to 3 is arbitrary, SB. Maybe it was kept to that number to support your theory?

I can't see how you can claim that "the modern era" is limited to 3 years.

Well i've said all year that i'm not gonna judge Pagan on the losses that we have..................i'm judging on how he bounces back the following week.

I gotta say this thou:- Whilst i DON'T think he is the right coach for this team, he has defenitly improved and is coaching quite well these past couple of weeks.

A few things here and there still remain, but the players are (this year) equally to blame aswell.

Some Positives that i've seen from Pagan this year:-

- Move of Setanta to the ruck instead of Kennedy.
- A more 'Positive' approach to the game.
- Having faith in Bannister (which will in-turn free up Bryce Gibbs to move up into the middle a bit more).
- Flooding A HELL OF ALOT LESS
- Correcting his mistakes the next week...............and that is the most important one for me.

Last year, if we got beat by 10+goals, we'd come out the next week and play the same dumb-ass style of play that was the main reason we lost the week before. It was all De-javu!
This season, it seems Pagan is willing to take a few risks and change the play the next week.

Now to the things that i don't like......................

- Still not that much of a fan of using the corridor (i'm getting a little tired of us just kicking long to a contest on the wing!)

- Promoting kids ONLY to give them 20min of game time. Development is one thing, but that's just a waste of time! Would rather see them play a full game in the two's!

- BOMBING Inside 50! Pagan mentioned a few weeks back that Carlton has used Fevola as a target 190times this season, with Fisher the closest 2nd on just 20. CONGRATULATIONS DENIS.......15 other teams figured this out 3 years ago! But, in his defence, since he said that stat there have been multiple goal kickers in Waite, Fisher & lappin................
But we still need some kind of plan when going forward. The play that saw Bryce Gibbs hit a leading Fisher on the Chest 30mtrs out from goal last week is probably play of the year for me, because it's just so rare to see that stuff happening anymore, usually we just bomb it in and hope for the best.

- His use of Kennedy has been a bit poor................but i'm sure he has he's reasons for that! He knows what he's doing i guess.

All in all, Pagan has imprved...........yes!

But i still think he is the wrong coach for us.

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- Aristotle

Blue Vain,

that post of yours is well thought out. Very pragmatic and a good summation of the situation. A very enjoyable read. Well done.

I cannot dismiss the coincidence of opinions expressed on TC and Pagan's/ MC's adoption of those opinions over the last 12 months. Almost a carbon copy. Where should the credit go? To TC who wear their heart on their sleeve or the 'copy cat' who is paid to think these things through and initiate? I don't know if he is a copy cat, just highlighting the coincidence.

Refer to TC match discussion after the WCE game at Subiaco last year. It was a constant theme to let the kids run and play their natural attacking game and they will learn more from that than the flood to nowhere....isn't attacking footy what they're doing now? BV begs the question: is that Pagan's plan?

Should Pagan take the credit or should it be given to TC? Sure it shows a willingness to adapt his views...but should they be called his views...that's my question.

There's a reason why Pratt has targeted Roos and maybe even Worsfold. The answer is expressed in his philosophy of where the 'best' are at the time; employed. If Pratt can't get Roos, Worsfold, Eade... then I'd suggest that the cupboard is bare for prospective coaches that fit the 'best' bill.

Now, the next question is who is the best available? Voss, Bond, Longmire....there's no proof that they're the best available...they're just maybe available.

I have an inkling that Bond (and Longmuir) is the best available, and probably the reason why Lyon got the nod at StKilda over Bond might have something to do with the fact that Lyon had experience at the highest level: the premier and runner up in the past 2 seasons.

Always got to look at the cattle they have at their disposal before passing judgement too. Does that therefore give Pagan an excuse for the poor performance? What about the question on development? Who knows?

It's a difficult one. No doubt Pagan will see out the season, and maybe see out his contract till the 'best' option is available. As long as the kids are developing (and that includes Banno and Wiggler), and we're heading towards finals, I'll remain patient and leave that to Pratt; as always it's a better bet to back winners with power.

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Is this how you see the world

Pagan and History

Moses parting of the Sea was idea that he got from Pagans Paddock

Abraham leading his people to the promise land came about after he saw Pagan talk Fev and Houlihan into staying at Carlton

Don Bradman noticed how Denis gripped the phone in the coaches Box and adopted that grip whilst batting

Winston Churchill refused to hold troops back in the battle from Normandy an idea he got from studying Pagans game plan

Jesus rising from the dead took his lead from Pagans Carlton when they came back from 48 points down against Essendon*

Ricky Ponting Ashes hero’s adopted and all out attack process and idea that is not to dissimilar to Pagans game Plan

Napoleon tactic of divide an conquer came from watching Denis Pagan when he first arrived at Carlton

General Custer was heard to whisper in his dieing breath- I should have done what Denis told me to do

The 30 million dollar Power Ball winner chose his numbers based on the draft picks that we had last year – He thanked Denis


Sorry Couldn't help myself your constant everything is good it must be Denis is almost as bad as my everything is bad must be Denis

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If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

Hi Bondi,
About thee months ago I think we were on differing sides of the Wiggo debate. Me for and you a bit less so. I think most of us would now agree he is in our current best 22, although there will always be those who say, "One swallow a summer maketh not."
I doubt very much that Denis reads TC so I reckon that attributing any changes to his style to TC is drawing a pretty long bow.
Just the same, your points are valid and I agree fully with your view that both Bannister and Wiggo have time to develop at 24 apiece.
Denis IS changing but for mine there is a long way to go and I don't reckon he has the time to change to the extent we want and need.
If you are reading this, Denis, nice game last week against the Dogs by the way

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Let slip the Blues of war (with apologies to William Shakespeare) (and Sir Francis Bacon, just in case)

Agree with the considerate recent posts - lets wait to the end of the year unless things implode. Then there should be a full review which includes the assesment if anybody better is actually available....

350 is a good number to retire on dont you think

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If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

Yep, good post BV.

The ironic thing is that we condemn the media for wild swings in attitude from week to week depending on results. A week is a long time in football, and the media is able to beat something new up each week.

But of course we tend to do the same. And our opinion has to change each week as a result. Not that this is entirely a bad thing as it would kill discussion if we had to wait for the end of the season.

But at club level, decisions should be made after we see how things go over the full season. That may work in Pagan's favour, or against him. Unless Pratt is able to sign up a coaching star during the season, that is, in which case Pagan's performance in the 2nd half of the season would be irrelevant.

It will be interesting to see how the game plan fares in the 2nd half of the season. Your suggestion that clubs will increasingly negate our game plan as they take us more seriously is intriguing.

I don't think so, but the proof of the pudding will be in the eating.

I wouldn't want to see us adopt a plan B game plan in response to negating tactics from our opposition. We've flirted with dropping back loose men to hold the fort late in quarters, but by doing so we've released the pressure on the opposition to our detriment.

We can win without doing so. Yes, this might not be possible against the top sides like WCE and Geelong, but that's got more to do with the fact that they're better than us at this stage. Against them, a conservative plan B would be more about respectable losses.

But the more pressing concern is that it is very dangerous for clubs to try to train up their squads in a different game plan in the middle of the season. Doing so is likely to cause confusion and detract from the development of our Plan A. That should await the coming preseason.

Of course the response to that might be that Pagan should wear the blame for not doing this before the season started. Maybe. But I think there are good reasons for keeping it simple. We were coming off a low base with little morale. We have a dearth of experienced leaders, and we were going to try to bring in a large number of inexperienced players. Having one bold plan was ideal for training and consistency.

The other thing is that the sorts of Plan Bs that we might have tried detract from our Plan A. It's a bit like trying to train someone who's been on crutches for some time to walk without them. You take the crutches away completely, otherwise the patient will regress to the psychological safety of the crutches. If we'd trained the players to have a back-up plan of playing loose men back, we could hardly have been surprised if they resorted to it when under pressure. Instead, we've thrown down the gauntlet to them and told them to be bold.

Next year, I'd hope that there are such options available to the team. Young, composed leaders like Murphy and Gibbs will be able to pull the trigger wisely rather than out of panic. By then, the less composed players should have the confidence in the prime game plan and their own skills and teammates to persist with it under pressure.

And in any event, there's enough tactical flexibility within the main strategy to keep other sides guessing. One example is varying our focus on Fev. Another is the positioning of versatile players such as Santy, Waite, Fish, Lance, Gibbs, Carrazzo and Walks. And the introduction of youngsters such as Aisake, Edwards, Benjamin and Grigg will take some clubs by surprise.

So, I won't be rating Pagan on the extent to which he implements other game plans. But if I were Pratt at the end of the year, I'd want to make sure that he had plans to implement them in the preseason.

How about trying to debate the issues instead of resorting to stereotyping and sarcasm, SB?

Moreover, out of Roos, Worsfold and Williams, wouldn't Roos be the only tea-leaf reader out of those three? Woosha and Choco wouldn't be too far off the Barassi ilk, in as much as the modern era allows them to be, would they?

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Round 22 this year Pagan will coach his 350th game taking him to 15th on the all time coaching record passing Robert Walls - every other coach above him has a far better win/loss ratio and premiership ratio- I just see it fitting that at this point Pagan will realise he hasn't the ability to match it with those above him and retire with dignity .

Its like that batsman that plays one to many innings , the great footballer that thinks he has the last season left in him. The old guy in the office who hasn't worked out how the computor works yet
Some people dont get the hint they need the tap on the shoulder

No sucession plan as they never work just move on into the distance and allow others to take off where you left off

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If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

Good to see you took my suggestion to heart ...

Which Longmuir are you talking about , Troy or Justin?

Some excellent posts recently, people using perspective instead of their own solid opinions.

It can't be argued that while Pagan hasn't done anything this year to definitely ensure he will stay with Carlton next year, he also hasn't screwed up (this year!) to have all and sundry baying for his blood. So, unless we either see a string of terrific wins - or capitulations - I think the decision for him to stay or go will be subjective, and probably depend on Pratt's 'best, available' yada yada yada... you know how it goes.

That said, if what has been said recently is true - and Woosha and Roos have been approached, that is all well and good.

But failing any experienced current coach joining us, I guess you can't argue that in the top bracket of potential coaches you have the likes of Bond, Longmire, Royal, Voss, G. Thomas (just kidding)... but the question is, are they going to show a marked improvement on Pagan's efforts this year?

Grant Thomas joined the Saints when they were in a similar position to where Carlton are now - still languishing in the bottom half of the ladder, but with considerable young talent that only needed time to develop. (Yes, noted that the difference is that Pagan's first years at CFC were half the reason for us acquiring said talent).

The Saints needed an experienced, level-headed coach - but instead they got Thomas, and for a list that arguably should have already achieved premiership glory (injuries aside) - they still haven't won any silverware.

In the absence of the type of coach that will take us to the top being available (and IMO those not coaching at the moment shouldn't be up for consideration), who would you prefer to coach the team - Grant Thomas or Dennis Pagan??






Two things may happen from here until the end of the season - the improvement in the team (whuich can't really be denied by anybody) continues, the competitiveness remains and Carlton has an admirable mid-season finish - or both the improvement and the competitiveness plateau, we fail to adapt, have no Plan B, lose cohesion and crash back to 2005-2006.

I believe that one, or the other - will determine if Pagan stays or goes at the end of 2007.

Well Indie I could go into great analysis on how are game style is similar to that of the West Coast Eagles or Geelong or more recently the Kangaroos - I could waffle on for hours how the development is progressing and how so and so stats have improved or how this tactic employed is starting to bare fruit.

but that's your line of debating - I choose not to debate incidentals I look at the big picture and the big picture I see is 24 wins 72 losses and two hard fought out draws .

I am sick of seeing this side lose all the time I get ecstatic these days when we slug out a 10 point win . I break out the champagne start heralding the dawn of a new era only t o be disappointed in 7 days time

He has had long enough - We have given him a go it hasn't worked fair enough its time to move on . I 'm not looking at every minor thing that happens during a game or on the training track trying to draw a positive out of it , I just want to turn on the tele and watch the side win on a regular basis - not asking much just something better that 1 win every 4 weeks

_________________
If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws