if we win this week we will be two games out of the eight

if we win this week we will be two games out of the eight

And one draw away from losing a PP.

forget about the PP we will beat richmond again and probably Essendon* as well and pick up another couple of victories along the way.

If not for losing Stevens we would have had 2-3 more wins right now. There are a couple of players in our team that are hard to cover the loss of, and he is one of them (probably Fev the other).

JB, I'll try to summarise my argument so there's no confusion:

This thread began at Round 4. I don't advocate playing to lose (cause that's what tanking means) at Round 4 of a season. I wouldn't advocate it at Round 11 of a season. That to me is not only cheating the system, but is cheating yourself.

We have a more talented team than what some posters give us credit for. I have faith that with smart list management, recruiting and trading from this point onwards with the talent we currently have and the additional picks we'll receive organically we can be a force. Another pick would be great, but getting it by trying to lose from this early in the year isn't the way to go about it.

Everyone would like another early pick - shit I would LOVE it - but that's not the question here. The topic is whether we should play to lose to get that pick. And I would argue that losing to get that pick at this early stage of the season would be more harmful to the club than good. Losing the final 12 games of the season may have a significant impact on moral of the players and supporters, as well as impact sponsorship, membership, player development, finances, etc. Is that all worth an extra pick? I'm not so sure. We came close to losing our best backman (worth a first round pick) and our 2004 first round pick because of the losing.

I would argue that player development would be accelerated in a winning team, where players are played in their rightful positions and in a team that has a balance of experience and youth. Playing losing football requires a young team, no mid aged/experienced players and playing the guys out of position. How is that going to help development? Confidence is everything in football. Play a pick 50 in a winning team like WC and watch that player grow to be equal of a pick 10. Conversly, a pick 4 or 11 can turn out to be pretty average in a losing team.

The draft has an element of unpredictability, but in general earlier picks are better than later picks. Having said that, I don't think there is much difference in Pick 1 and Pick 2 or 3. I think if you look back over the history of the draft, there's some pretty compelling evidence.

And although high picks are generally better, there is no evidence to suggest you need only high draft picks to be a premiership team. With the right resources into recruiting, scouting and player development, any club can develop a long term winning team through a combination of high and low drafts picks. Other clubs (like WC and Adelaide) have managed to do that, so if we are the great club that we say we are, than we can do the same. Relying on early draft picks to magically turn the club around isn't the only answer. There are a heap of other factors that we need to get right.

If we are near the end of the season and are stuck on 4 wins, then I think it would do more benefit for the club than harm to put an inexperienced (unlikely to win) team on the park. I have said that throughout the entire thread. The difference here is, playing to lose from as early as round 4 in the season may be more harmful to the club than good. Throwing a season of AFL football for a pick is manipulating and cheating the system. Playing a young inexperienced team late in the season where there is no chance of making finals is common practice and desireable as it gives the youngsters more games and sees where they're at in their development which also helps in list management. It rests the older players to inable them to avoid injury and play on in the future (resting Fev when he had a groin injury a few years back comes to mind ). It also enables supporters to get a taste for the future and one or two loss doesn't destroy the club. If we were on 5-7 wins by Round 21 I would still like to see the club play more of the youngsters and give guys like Lappo and Kouta a rest so they can go on next year. To me that is not tanking, it is smart player and list management. If Hartlett has played only a couple of senior games by round 20 I'd be pissed and want to see him in the team if we're out of finals contention even if he wasn't a walk up for our best 22. To be honest, I'd like to see him in the team now.

There's a massive difference between playing to lose early/mid season and playing youngsters late in the year when we're out of finals contention.

NYTDOG, with most of what you said, you raise up a very good argument and I would have to say that I agree with you.

The only thing I want to say, is that from my point of view, I don't want to see Carlton be another Richmond. That is, pick up a couple of early picks and then in a couple of years time find out that our list wasn't really that deep. I prefer the St Kilda and Hawthorn model, where they used the draft to their advantage, stocked up on a heap of quality players and will probably be playing finals for the next 5-10 years. If they're not playing finals, then certainly they won't be wining another wooden spoon for a while. St Kilda has been ravaged with injuries and yet they have played finals the past 3 years and even this year they have won more games than us.

Unfortunately this priority pick system causes these tanking debates and I find that it actually takes out a bit (actually a lot) of the passion in the game. If AFL was a really strong code, I would prefer to see a model like in the English Premier League (soccer) where the last couple of teams are relegated, and the third last team is in a playoff to save their spot. That would certainly bring a lot of passion back into the game and this "who cares if we win or not" mentality wouldn't exist. I saw a couple of weeks ago the game that determined who come up into the EPL from the Champions division (I can't remember the two teams, I think one was Derby), and the game was full of drama. The tension in the spectators faces was just unbelievable. Even I was getting into the game.

Having said all that, I hope your right NYTDOG. Time will tell.

If we play like this every week, flower the flowering PP!

It is just about shut the gate, glad it happened reasonably early in the season. PP would have been nice, but nothing you can do about it if they keep playing like this.

Almost time to ....