The pros and cons thread has turned into another ridiculous conversation of tanking. It's so pathetic. Supporters who want us to lose are pathetic. Supporters who compare 2007 with 2004 have no clue. This year we are playing good footy with talented line ups that will put us in good stead for years to come. 2004 was the complete opposite. Some people think that we can finish 15th/16th this year and magically win a premiership the next. It doesn't work like that. At some point you need to start winning and build momentum into an eventual premiership team.

I keep coming back to clubs like WC and Adelaide. WC have played finals every year but two years in the past 16. They have won 3 premierships in that time and played off in a couple of other grand finals. Never have they needed to tank. Now that's a great club. But yet our own supporters contend that the blues aren't a chance in the future unless we tank yet another year. What does that say about what our very own supporters think about our club. I for one think our club is a lot better than that.

I leave you with this. If we are the greatest club in the competition like most of us truly believe, why would we have to stoop to the low of tanking to win a premiership. A great club would never need to do that. If we win 8 games this year and our premiership (or 2) in 3 or 4 years time, it will taste so much sweater than having to tank ANOTHER year to win that premiership. It's about integrity. Do you want to win by bending the rules, or do you want to win by working hard and doing it the right way. Great clubs don't tank to win premierships. In the past few years we just weren't good enough. This year we are.

Tanking is like the guy that brags to his friends that he slept with the hotest girl in town - leaving out the one interesting fact - that he actually had to paid for it.

One last point of hypocricy I'd like to point out. The same posters that have criticised Carlton for not changing with the times - not adapting to the new systems of the AFL - for still trying to buy our way to success - or for trading away picks for mature aged players ...... are now the same posters that are advocating tanking (you know who you are dabnys). The funny thing is, tanking is no different. It is cheating/manipulating the system instead of doing it the right way... which is changing all the other aspects of the club to ensure a sustainable future and long term successful team.

Mate, you can start comparing us to the Eagles when we are handed 12 wins a year on a platter by having the biggest home ground advantage in the league. They have to have had a disaster of a season to miss the finals. You're comparing apples and oranges.

Keep in mind that the Eagles do have to travel alot more

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Between our dreams and actions lies this world

The success West Coast had in the 90's is due to the home grown players they "inherited" through their zone. Times have changed. We also were lucky to "inherit" players like Kouta, Ratten, Matt Allen and Silvagni which gave us success in the 90's.

Their success over the last few years is largely due to Judd (pick #3 in 2001), Kerr (pick #18 in 2000), Cousins (father/son rule) and Cox (rookie selection).

Kerr and Cox were obviously astute selections, however one cannot argue that high draft picks make a big difference as well as having some luck with the father/son selection i.e. Cousins for WC and Scarlett/Abletts for Geelong.

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There is no footy god

absolutely ... so it is not foreign to them, and nowehere near as much of a disadvantage to them is it is to the sides who travel 4 times a year.

The Eagles couldn't win on the road in their first few years (and neither could the dockers), but as they have become used to it over time it is not as large and issue for them (on a week to week basis - there is still the ?? as to whether the extra travel may shorten the longevity of a player).

They then have the flipside of every second week they get to play a team that has had the long and unfamiliar trek to WA.

The other point that certain canines neglect to point out is the resources the interstate clubs put into their football departments.

With memberships of around 40,000 and a waiting lists to join the Football Departments of Adelaide, West Coast are awash with cash to fund state of the art gymnasiums, sports scientists etc etc in which to fully develop their list of low draft picks to the maximum of their potential.

At Carlton we have been HOPING that time alone will MAGICALLY turn this losing culture into a WINNING one and all of a sudden our list will turn into winners.

Unfortunately I am unable to provide an EXCEL spreadsheet at this time to back up my assertions - but if I have not read his posts clearly enough then I apologise in advance.

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"Hence you will not say that Greeks fight like heroes but that heroes fight like Greeks"?

Winston Churchill

I just want to win. I couldnt give 2 flowers how we win. The PP could be the key to us winning the flag that u are talking about.

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Walk on, Walk on,
With hope, in your heart,
And you'll never walk alone,
YOU'LL NEVER WALK ALONE!!!

08/02/1981 - GATE 7...Our brothers will never be forgotten!!!

And finally I notice that Hawthorn who have been cellar dwelling for the past 3 or 4 years and have stock piled a plethora of first round draft picks seem to be going quite well this year - I didn't notice a whole lot of winning culture start propelling them up the AFL ladder either. Apparently they have still got a couple of first rounders that havent even played yet.

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"Hence you will not say that Greeks fight like heroes but that heroes fight like Greeks"?

Winston Churchill

Mitch Thorp, Beau Dowler.

Muston hasn't played yet either IIRC.

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Writer for SuperCoach Paige www.scpaige.com.au
Twitter - @johnfeeney24

Dont worry Phoenix - we dont need any more first rounders.

We have started on our winning ways.

The winning culture will just permeate through this list like the "Ebola Virus" and take us to the top of the ladder.

From the Halls of Montezuma
To the shores of Tripoli
We fight our country's battles
On the land as on the sea.
First to fight for right and freedom
And to keep our honor clean;
We are proud to claim the title
Of United States Marines

Oops sorry thats the Adelaide Club Song.

But hey dont let that get in the way of a good story.

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"Hence you will not say that Greeks fight like heroes but that heroes fight like Greeks"?

Winston Churchill

Lets tank so we can build a side as good as Geelong's without bottoming out. The Cats have had great luck with their father son selections, but their senior core didn't come from early picks and they've picked a few duds and average players early.

Those early picks wasted on duds or average players didn't hurt them as much because they had access to the Abletts, Scarlett and Hawkins.

A fancy graph doesn't change the fact we could pick the next Kennedy(or Meesen) who everyone will be whinging about just 32 games after he was drafted.

Cam Mooney - traded for Colbert with picks 53 and 67
2006 7 Joel Selwood
2006 25 Djerrkura
2006 Hawkins
2005 15 Travis Varcoe
2005 31 Trent West
2005 35 Stephen Owen
2004 Ottens - playing better than Meyer and Pattison
2004 61 Matthew Stokes
2004 32 Brent Prismall
2004 48 Nathan Ablett (FS)
2004 62 Matthew Egan
2003 7 Kane Tenace
2003 22 Cameron Thurley
2003 38 Mark Blake (FS)
2003 42 Matthew Spencer
2002 7 Andrew Mackie
2002 36 Tim Callan (FS)
2002 Shannon Byrnes rookie draft
2001 8 James Bartel
2001 17 James Kelly
2001 23 Charlie Gardiner
2001 24 Steve Johnson
2001 40 Gary Ablett Junior (FS)
2001 41 Henry Playfair
2001 81 David Johnson
2000 44 Joshua Hunt
2000 Max Rooke rookie draft
1999 8 Joel Corey
1998 17 Peter Street
1999 31 Paul Chapman
1999 38 Cameron Ling
1999 47 Corey Enright
1998 24 David Wojcinski
1998 37 Tom Harley
1995 48 Darren Milburn

Hey BI, thanks for saying it was fancy.

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I think its completely undeniable and obvious that Pick 1 is "generally" gonna provide a player that will play more ALF games than pick 30 or 60 (for example) so the graph from Jarusa doesn't mean too much to me (i applaud Jarusa for dedicating his time to it).

I really believe that luck has so much to do with which player will be better for their respective clubs when you try and assess the quality of players you get from picks 1 to 5.

I read this debate and cant get passed the fact that Chris Judd (1 brownlow and more to come) was not a pick 1 or 2 and Adam Goodes (2 brownlows) was not even in the top 40.

And just for tyhe sake of it, condier these guys:

- Nick Dal Santo (13)
- Simon Black (31)
- Didak (3)
- Pendelbury (5)
- Shane Crawford (13)
- Brett Kirk (Rookie)
- Ryan O'Keefe (56)
- Daniel Kerr (18)

And the list can go on and on forever to support what i'm arguing. At the end of the day its picks 1-5 are a almost a lottery and every one of those top 5 guys has the chance to be as good as each other.

Lets try and focus on the club being moving forward sooner by smart recruiting, winning games, gathering more members and supporters (by winning games), getting more financial investment (by winning games).

We'll more than likely get pick 5 and he will be a champion of the AFL just like picks 1-4.

We've missed the boat to get a PP this year. Lets resume this tank debate IF we are at round 17 with 3 wins. Until then, lets play to win.

Bearzo, you left a certain pick 4 off that list......

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And so while others miserably pledge themselves to the pursuit of ambition and brief power, I will be stretched out in the shade, singing.

Judd had dodgy shoulders and St. Kilda & Hawthorn did not want to take a the risk.

Kerr told all interstate clubs not to bother picking him as he would not come, so interstate clubs did not take the risk.

Didak and Pendlebury are top 5 picks so not sure why they are on the list.

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"Hence you will not say that Greeks fight like heroes but that heroes fight like Greeks"?

Winston Churchill

We can't keep relying on the no 1 pick.How many no 1's have the Eagles/Swans had?
We can continue building our list with shrewd use of the rookie system.
We have enough high 1st round picks,James Hird was pick 79 wasn't he?

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I see you watching me watching you.

Plenty of jewels in the Rookie Draft.


Did you ever wonder why the AFL [REDACTED] us right royally in 2002 and prevented us from participating in the first 2 rounds of the National Draft in 2002 adn 2003?

If the first 2 rounds of the National Draft are so irrelevant why didn't the AFL just give us extra picks in the first 2 rounds and stop us from selecting any players in Rounds 3, 4 and 5.

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"Hence you will not say that Greeks fight like heroes but that heroes fight like Greeks"?

Winston Churchill

We've done ok out of Simpson,Fischer& Carrots haven't we?

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I see you watching me watching you.

Cosidering all the talk about our lack of a decent ruckman,wasn,t Dean Cox a rookie list player

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I see you watching me watching you.