You're going to have to convince Richard Pratt, not us.

He set the bar high when he suggested 10 wins despite Stevo being ruled out for the season.

Surely that's a message that the club wants to show an improvement in its ladder position? Whether that be for reasons of finance, membership, sponsorship, or morale is pure speculation.

You are really saying you want Pratt to come out and announce that we have turned the corner, and the rest of the season should be used to develop the young players irrespective of ladder position, aren't you? But unlike posters on an internet site, Pratt and the Board have to balance a number of different and competing priorities and can't limit itself to just draft picks.

I'd reckon that the coaching staff would have to accord Pratt's comments due respect.

i loved the win, and i love to see us win, obviously

but, if we were to finish last again and get a PP i dont think membership would be adversely affected at all. pagan would be sacked and a new coach appointed. he would be indirectly blamed for the lean years and this coach would bring with him optimism and relief from supporters.

we would get 2 more top 3 picks that would be just all too easy to market in a membership campaign....and besides, those who know whats what recognise we need atleast one more lean year and real good dip into the draft before we can start to get moving the right way in the right direction.

its such a tough choice...but a PP, depending on the quality of this years draft could almost be too good to pass up.

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"In fairness it did seem in the early days of the draft teams would just pick a name totally at random out of a hat. I'm pretty sure we picked James Cook at #2 one year. The mediocre forward, not the explorer" - Me, 12/9/2011

Carlton 2012: Lets remind them why they once feared the Dark.

You've been watching Major League, haven't you Sean?

You set a target for the coach, and try to ensure that he can't reach it, justifying a purge at the end of the year. The only problem is that if you set targets for the coach and the team, you can hardly complain if they try to achieve them. As happened in Major League.

Of course, that won't prevent caterwauling and a new round of vilification if we do win around 10 games. Then we'll hear claims that Pagan was selfish in trying to meet the challenge set for him, rather than putting his head on the chopping block gracefully for the good of the club.

Maybe it would be better to avoid setting that sort of challenge and hoping for failure???? Maybe the way to go would have been to announce that the dominant KPI for assessing the performance of the coaching staff would be development of the young players and the amount of matches and TOG they were given, and the number of wins was largely an irrelevance ????

i love major league...whos our roger dorn? cos its not pratt...hmmm. fev is charlie sheen. and setanta is pedro cerano.

in major league, yeah they won the pennant, but then the white sox routed them in the divisional playoffs and knocked them out. i see no point in us having a 2004esque year. i can totally handle one more lean year. theres no point getting to the finals and just making up the numbers.

and pagan knows hes gone. his performances as the coach of our club have been shocking. it is an absolute disgrace collins signed him up again...he needs to go for us to grow.

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"In fairness it did seem in the early days of the draft teams would just pick a name totally at random out of a hat. I'm pretty sure we picked James Cook at #2 one year. The mediocre forward, not the explorer" - Me, 12/9/2011

Carlton 2012: Lets remind them why they once feared the Dark.

Who can name me the 15th placed teams from the last 10 years off the top of their head??? I'm sure none of u can. Its only the premiers we remember.

WE HAVE NOTHING TO GAIN BY WINNING 6 GAMES AND FINISHING 14TH!!! Hypothetically speaking, we will remember this years picks 1 & 3 for 10 years to come while our 15th placed finish with 4 wins will be forgotten by March 2008.

Why cant some of u see this???

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Walk on, Walk on,
With hope, in your heart,
And you'll never walk alone,
YOU'LL NEVER WALK ALONE!!!

08/02/1981 - GATE 7...Our brothers will never be forgotten!!!

Why do people who believe in God, Heaven and the after life still fear death? Because the basic instinct is to survive. A football team's basic instinct is to compete and win. I go every week hoping to win, if you want to hope for a loss then I feel sorry for you. As Mandy said, what a pathetic bunch we've become if we hope to lose .


IF we finish 15th we will get pick 2 and 18 if we can't be a top side with the players we've already collected, plus the 2 top 20 picks from this year then we're doing something far worse than losing for draft picks.

I'd much rather have Carrazzo and Bentick holding the 2009 cup than pick 1 and pick 3 from 2007. That will prove success from success rather than success from failure..

pick 1 and 3 will probably be much much better players than carrazzo and bentick....despite that one of them will probably not be in the team by that stage as theyre both similar players and itd be overkill to have the two of them when one will suffice

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"In fairness it did seem in the early days of the draft teams would just pick a name totally at random out of a hat. I'm pretty sure we picked James Cook at #2 one year. The mediocre forward, not the explorer" - Me, 12/9/2011

Carlton 2012: Lets remind them why they once feared the Dark.

When I think about an upcoming game at the MCG, I might ponder whether a wet day or a dry day will be better for us. I might even look at the BoM site to see what the forecast is. But I don't yell at the computer if it's not telling me what I want to see. If the day comes, and the weather isn't what I had hoped for, I don't cry and rock myself better in an armchair. Instead, I go to the game and hope we win.

See, the thing is that no amount of energy I spend on influencing the weather will change the weather. That's life. You get on with it.

If you think that your attitude to wins and losses matters a toss in the scheme of things, I feel sorry for you. Sad to say that you, like the rest of us, have an infinitesimal influence on whether our boys win or lose. Just strap yourself in and enjoy the ride.

Unless, that is, you can somehow influence Pratt to redefine the aims for the side this year.

youve drawn an excruciatingly long bow there, indie.

we all know we cant effect the outcome of the matches. we all love to win, and we want to see our boys win...but like in 2005 had we beaten the kangaroos in that final game it would have been a massive loss for the club. im just saying one final lean year will position us for the next 10 to 12.

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"In fairness it did seem in the early days of the draft teams would just pick a name totally at random out of a hat. I'm pretty sure we picked James Cook at #2 one year. The mediocre forward, not the explorer" - Me, 12/9/2011

Carlton 2012: Lets remind them why they once feared the Dark.

This is the PROS & CONS thread - take this discussion to the TANKING thread please.

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No Guts, No Glory

Don't you think you're simplifying things a little too much?

I'm not going to argue that say having pick #4 in the draft is somehow better than picks #1 and #3. What I can't understand is the opinion that this is all that matters. It seems people believe that just getting the young talent is all that's required to win a flag.

There are examples of teams that have had a decent dip at the pointy end of the draft, and none of them have won a flag yet. Richmond, Hawthorn and St Kilda would be the recent examples. Hawthorn are looking promising, Richmond seem to need to rebuild again already and St Kilda seem to have talent but miss some other ingredient required for success.

The team having a big charge up the ladder at the moment is Geelong. I don't think there is a top 5 pick in their team. They may go back to their handbags and stop playing good footy, but at the moment they're looking good and seem to contradict the "Tanking is the only way" argument.

I just can't see enough evidence that points to Top 3 picks being the only way to win flags. In fact, there is enough diversity in structure and make up of the teams that have won flags in the past, plus those that look like contending this year that I find it laughable for anyone to suggest they have the "one true way".

Other factors like player development must also play a huge role in the teams progress. Unfortunately, player development can't be measured easily, and the reasons for that development are even harder to pin point. With something so elusive, I think we have to be very careful about messing around with it. Throwing games is a huge gamble, and it's effects on our players is very hard to predict.

It's easy to cling to things that are easy to explain. That picks #1 and #3 (pre draft) are better than #4 is pure logic. We can sit there and feel good that we've made the most progress possible for the year. I just think that's ignoring so many other factors that will determine when we win flag #17. If you can see there is "one true way" to win the next flag, then you're either a hell of a lot smarter than me, or deluded.

id like to know where we draw the line and balance tanking with playing finals football.
obviously we are not good enough for finals football as yet. next year we need to be, if we play finals football next season how much is pick 1 & 3 going to bring to the table as 18 y.o if we play finals football next year?

i think we should focus on gibbs, grigg, ando, benji, aisake and the hampster to improve next season couple with jk, russell, blackwell, murphy, bower, &hartlett.

I tend to agree.. Ive taken so many hits to the guts in the past few years (both personally and in football) that another half a season of pain is not going to make a difference.

My son is 3 yo, he's known (or at least recognised) the Carlton theme song from about 5 months old. Now when I say to him "you want to sing a song?", he always starts off with "da,dada,dada", instead of twinkle twinkle. I want Carlton to be a force when he's old enough to go to the football. I want him to see the next Blue dynasty. Another PP will go a long way to ensuring that will happen and stay that way.

It's hard to win a premiership. There are 16 other teams all fighting for the same thing. Unfortunately, the way to maximise your chances is to go for high draft picks. Especially in recent times when the amount of scrutiny on draft picks has produced very few number one duds.

Just my opinion, and my long term strategy for getting my club their next premiership. At the end of the day this is out of our hands.. and what will happen will happen!

I think we just need to enjoy the ride that were on at this stage... Its been enjoyable watching Carlton this year, there is a hell of a lot of hope and much more than we've seen in previous years..

We have a great core of young kids, Gibbs and Murphy are absolute rippers! Fisher is taking the next step and becoming a very good player for us, as much as he can frustrate me Jarrad Waite does some brilliant things and has a BIG upside to his game, Walker has been very good this year and Pagan MUST play him in the midfield, he is growing all the time!.. Blackwell is a ball winner and needs to be played each week, he's going to be a player.. And one of my faves SIMPSON is a beauty!

Losing our Vice Captain Nick Stevens just showed early this year how much of a leader he is to this club and how important he was.. Really should have been captain instead of Whitnall, displayed his leadership early on and showed just how important he is to the team and in particular the young guys..

We are playing an exciting attacking brand of footy, the kids are coming along and the 2 O'Hailpin brothers will become good players for us over the next year or 2.. Why would you not want to see our side develop and grow?? And play winning footy??

Honestly, i dont understand it! Some of you people... Geeez..

Would you want to see us continue to make the same mistakes, losing confidence and losing close matches each week and the young kids not growing in their confidence and self belief!??

I havent been posting on here a lot, a regular browser though and i agree a lot with what NYTDOG has been saying... Develop a winning mentality will do a lot for our club and im pretty sure something like a pick 2 or 3 and 19 for eg.. will be very handy to our future, not to mention young kids like Anderson, Benjamin, Aisake, Josh Kennedy, Grigg and the likes coming through, all of which are spoken of highly and capable of being very important players in the coming years..

Along with the current brigade that i've mentioned and a host of experienced players like the FEV, Lappin, Scotland, Thornton and Kouta and we have the makings of a very good side..

Lets remember guys it could have been easily 6-4 or 5-5... It's not a coincedence we've been playing decent footy... The REAL dark days are well and truly over, and you can see that in the way the guys are playing...

I say keep it up Blueboys, back yourselves and people enjoy watching these players go, cos as there will be some frustrating times, there is a lot of hope and some real exciting times ahead...

We will finish at least in the bottom 4 or 5, and that pick pick and a top 20 pick will do just fine for me! We're well on our way already!

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Corinthians 9:6- 8

Then trade up to get the high draft picks. Tanking is one option, but it also the easy option that requires us to be losers!

And havent we had enough of that!

Spot on!

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Corinthians 9:6- 8

You're making too much sense... stop it!

Geelong got a nice gift when they got the Abletts, Scarlett, Hawkins for nothing......thats a player who can play onball/kick goals, a KPP forward, a Fullback and a Full forward...all of whom came with decent physical development. and no remedial skill work required....

You stick Gary and Nathan Ablett in our team, put Scarlett at Fullback and we would be top 8.......try and recruit that type of readymade talent through the draft?.....three top ten picks plus more I would suggest....

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"When you have the attitude of a champion, you see adversity as your
training partner."
- Conor Gillen

I thoroughly enjoy McAvaney's commenary though...

His enthusiasm for the game is infectious and is totally unbiased when it comes to calling regarding any team.. Has no grudge or bone to pick with other teams, unlike Dwayne Russel or Garry Lyon, Just loves the game, calls it beautifully and is well and truly back in good form as a caller..

He makes a big difference to 7

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Corinthians 9:6- 8

Pros - everyone has pretty much covered the pros from this week but I would like to add [if not already mentioned] the all heart that is Setanta - the guys bleeds navy blue.

You gotta love his endeavour and although he makes you think Oh God please don't stuff it up...... he puts in 110% everytime - no matter where he is on the ground and for that I am glad that we won and the big Irishman had a smile on his face.

Cons - all pro and anti tankers discussing tanking in this thread!

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“It is a state of mind, a system of belief, a way of seeing the world, a deep faith that, because you are Carlton, you belong to something great.” - Mike Fitzpatrick articulating what Out of the Blue means.