Sometimes we see some odd results, some surprise wins, a bolter from the dungeons leaping up the ladder and also a sudden drop from the 8. Looks like 2005 will bring all of the above, troubling the tipsters but more importantly, making it very difficult for us Carlton fans to know where we are at. Sure, 2004 was an improvement as we notched up 10 wins, and no one really expected ‘a cakewalk’ for a premiership after our pre-season performances (except if you’re a Pies fan), but what is happening out there? How many times have you shaken your head this year – no one seems to know where we are anymore. It seems the only thing we seem to know for sure is that we aren’t at Optus Oval.

Let’s take a step back - after 9 rounds, we’ve won 10 premiership points giving us the average of 1.1 points per game. No one is under any illusion that this is anywhere near good enough, but have a think about where those points have come from, and where they are missing but should have come through, and it’s pretty confusing stuff. Of those 10 points, we’ve won 2 against last year’s Premiers, 4 against last years 6th spot and 4 against last year’s 15th placed team, Hawthorn.

We’ve had 2 big losses, our biggest against last year’s wooden spooner, our second against the Cats who just dished out an even bigger points win against North, who up until a month ago were equal top of the ladder. Believe me, I know all about last year’s wooden spooner too – last year I revelled in sending out ‘unofficial’ wooden spoons to my Brother-In-Law, with a complimentary but fake letter from the Richmond club suggesting that he buy the whole set of Tiger Spoons for $99.95! Imagine what sort of pain I’m going to be in at the end of the season if the Tigers stay up, and we stay down - divorce may be on the cards!

But what can we make of our other losses? In our other four games this year, we’ve lost by 20, 20, 18 and 19, hardly the margin of a team sitting in 15th spot. So what does this tell us? It tells me that we just don’t seem to have the polish to take those close games, or stay close enough during those games, despite most of the guys out there working their butts off. It tells me that we’re still learning to work as a team, and with 2-4 changes each week for the past few games, maybe our team really hasn’t gelled yet in 2005. It also tells me that I may have a bit more ‘lean time’ writing for carltonfc.com.au, but after writing for the former cellar dwellers the Bullants for the past 2 years, I reckon I’m up to the challenge. (Note the Bullants are flying now that Mike & Dan are writing for the Blues!)

The 4 other teams that we’ve lost against have included Melbourne, a top 4 team last year, and Freo and North – both in or around the top 8 last year but up & down this year. It just seems the whole competition is in a funny state at the moment, a season where each game could go either way, and the bottom placed team can knock off the top team. We saw it this weekend with the Pies knocking off the Weagles in one of the higher skilled games of the round. We’ve got last year’s bottom 8 teams Richmond and Adelaide in the 8, with the Doggies knocking at the door, and last year’s top 8 teams Essendon*, St Kilda, Port and Brisbane dropping like flies. The whole competition appears to have lifted, to have improved, leaving these teams, plus the Blues, in a much tighter spot than we expected.

All this brings us nowhere – it’s too hard to say where we are at. Despite all the emotion of the weekend, we were clearly a class lower than the Dee’s, who have broken their biannual failure trend and look like keeping their spot in the top 8. Although we were willing the Mighty Blues on in that last quarter, I think it was that third quarter where we lost the game. Missing those 4 easy shots and giving up some easy goals just had us too far back for our customary last quarter run, but the boys gave it a crack and looked good with their run & carry & deliver well to the forwards strategy (Sounds like the Wizard Cup win, doesn’t it?).

Alas, there are always positives. Simmo now looks to be part of the rotation, taking spots on the wing and back pocket, but most importantly, taking the field. ‘AB’ Bentick kicked his first goal in his career and kept McLean a bit quieter than whoever was on Johnstone! Stevens looked like a man on a mission as he slotted through 2 goals to lift his yearly stats to 3.6, and he really took the challenge up to the Demons midfield in that second half. But the biggest plus out there was clearly the Captain, Anthony Koutoufides, who continues to lead the boys by his supreme example. Kouta was everywhere, and it was a fitting tribute to our last game to see him raise the ball to the crowd, hug Big Nick, and lead us off after yet another stellar game. If only we had 22 Kouta’s, well let’s say 16 Kouta’s, Fevola, a few Lappins and yes a Simmo or two…then we know where’d be at - Premiers! But of course that’s a dreamworld, filled with leprechauns, fairies and Fraser Murphy’s, leaving the Blues still at 15th and needing a huge effort this weekend against the resurgent Crows.

Its a good question to ask where are we at , because you really do wonder if the club has a long term plan in place to get this side back up again or are we just running from one disaster to another with no action plan. Just some of the question I have in my head suggests there is no long term solution. Can someone answer the following for me.
1. If we opted to bottom out why win 10 games last year and delay our recovery even further. We could of had Simmonds - Knobel and Delido at the club now
2 If we are relying on the youth of the club and future draft picks to carry us forward - Why draft the likes of Chambers, Longmure , scotland , bannister , mcgrath etc - why not just take a punt on kids in the draft - Look at that Sherman in the Lions he couldn't have been an early pick
3. French is out this week and Prendagast will likely come him to replace him - So why draft Bryan- Seasons over nothing to lose why not give him a go
4. Why has Walker a highly skilled young talent now become a tagger
5. When given the chance in the middle Simmo- bentick - Walker really had a dip- So why not leave them there
6. Pagan stated last year we are being out bodied we needed bigger bodies to compete around the contest - Cant argue with that - But why then draft Eddie Betts, chambers , longmure , blackwell and russell -not that I have anything against these players but they are not big bodies and never will be.

these are just a few of a million questions you could ask - There just doesn't seem to be a plan to move forward unless I am completely missing it.

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If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

I'll tell you where I believe we are at but it wont be pleasant reading.

I believe we have a group of players who have lost faith in themselves, each other and most disturbingly, the match committee and game style.
They have zero confidence in themselves to hit targets, to beat their opponent and to create.
When we get the ball, we no longer try to pinpoint a pass and when we do, we kick in hope.
We kick to packs because its easier to hit a group of 6 players instead of hitting one.
Instead of moving the ball on quickly, we hold onto it and play "safe".

We therefore move the ball slowly, allow our opponents to zone back and continually kick to contests.
We play a stagnant style of footy that Brisbane at their best forced their opponents to play.
There are 2 ways to fix it. Run hard, move the ball quickly, play on at all costs and take risks.
The other way is to play possession football, refuse to kick to a contest and lead up at the player in possession.
Pagan will never allow the second option and our players dont have the confidence to carry it out.

Richmond and Hawthorn are improving rapidly because they have been sold a message.
Wallace has Richmond believing that their gamestyle is brilliant and if they play at their best, they cant lose.
They have total faith in the way they play.

Pagan on the other hand is battling to sell his message.
Some players dont believe they can play that style of game and dont have faith in their teammates to adapt.
Its a confidence issue which can be addressed but it will take a long time.
Their are senior players at Carlton who will never believe in what Denis is selling.
Until 22 players have total faith and belief in themselves and our system, we will go around in circles.

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Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.

Cant argue with any of the points you havemade there BV - but where is the plan to fix it . There just doesnt seem to be any direction

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If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

Lots of good questions SB, but with regards to No.4:

I heard Greg Williams on the radio speaking about Walker. Said he was a bit disappointed with him at this stage, and that he'd probably benefit from a stint as a run-with player to assist his development.

Diesel advocating any sort of tagging is a BIG call, given how much he hates taggers.

Points 1 and 2 are pretty much in the same realm. Being booted out of rounds 1, 2 and 3... then rounds 1 and 2 in the draft meant that all we could do is either pick up a whole bunch of speculative lower picks, or a bunch of retreads.

The former strategy would have seen us probably win 2 games last year and a further 2 games this year. Sure, we'd have a bunch of talented young players going into season 2006 as a result, but I'm pretty sure that the club wasn't prepared to adopt that radical a bottoming-out strategy.

The likes of Stevens probably wouldn't have wanted to come to the club either.

It's a bitch, but the draft penalties mean that our spoon in '02 and 15th place in '03 are MEANINGLESS in terms of benefit. Our pain starts NOW.

John I dont beleive for one minute that the side turned over its playing list and busted its gut last year to win 10 games just to keep Stevens happy. I thought Stevens only landed at Carlton because a trade couldn't be made with collingwood and he had burnt his bridges at PA. It doesn't make sense to work your arse off to win 10 games last year and the WC. Only to through it all away this year and bottom out for draft picks and go threw the pain again. Nothing would annoy the supporters more than to have their hopes built up - create a near record membership only to see thier side tank a season for draft picks . It simply doesnt make sense and in the end it is all speculation and could end up doing more harm than good. I really dont think they know what their doing it all seems about getting the off feild finances right and worry about the on feild later on . But what they fail to realise is that the on feild success will fix the off feild financual problems a lot quicker.

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If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

1. Who is saying we have opted to bottom out? Alot of people on here are saying we should, but who at Carlton has said that or shown any indication of it? I would say Pagan is trying his hardest to get the guys to win but we are just not good enough

2. Scotland, Bannister, McGrath were recruited because we had to get the deadwood out of the club - the Allans, the Murphys, the Beaumonts, and we also had to get some players into the club that could play games. You can't just bring in 20 young kids in one year and throw them to the wolves, we needed to take a punt on some players by giving them second chances. And personally I would prefer any of these three guys playing for Carlton that the ones they replaced! Getting rid of those guys WAS planning for the future. Bringing in guys with stronger work ethics WAS planning for the future.

3. Bryan needs to play decent football in the reserves before bringing him in. Why bring a guy in just because he is tall? Do you recall the St Kilda game where Mott was brought in last year purely because of his height? Do you remember how he embarassed himself and us by being so far off the pace????

4. Perhaps Pagan is trying to teach Walker how to be accountable? We know he is going to be a star, perhaps Pagan is trying to avoid lumbering us with ANOTHER player that does not want to be or know how to be accountable

5. You can't leave Simpson, Bentick and Walker in the middle for the whole game, unless you would like to kill them. Everyone rotates their midfield, even West Coast who have strong midfielders. You can't just expect these kids to play 4 quarters on the ball.

6. Have you seen Chambers? If he is not a "big body" I don't know what it. As for Betts, how can you even question drafting him? We picked him up in the PSD - who would you have preferred? Lance Pacione who went to North? I don't recall too many 6 foot big bodies still being available when we had our pick in the PSD.

As for questioning the selection of Russell and Blackwell - if that's not planning for the future what is?? How many kids are in the draft that have "big bodies"? The last big bodied kid we picked up is overweight and more than likely in his last year of the AFL at the ripe old age of 25!!!

I suppose we always could have gone Cain Ackland instead of Russell. He's a big body, I'm sure he would have made a huge difference to our team and our long term prospects.

So MM what you are saying theres is a plan in place.
1. Having the coach come out and say that the draft penalties are really hurting us and we lack depth to me sounds like we are going to bottom out.
2 we could argue all day about replacing ordinary players with more ordinary players but refferring to them as deadwood just because they didn't exactly agree with the coach is a bit harsh. It was either Denis or them and in this instance Denis held the bigger stick
3.Granted you have to teach players to be accountable but i would like to see walker get more of the footy first -then become accountable later on
4. I never made the statement we needed bigger bodies the coach did so why say one thing and do the other.
5. Please dont tell me Bryan is another Mott
6. chambers doesnt look big on the TV - remember you blokes dont like playing in sydney so we very rarely get to see them live.
7. I would never knock Eddie and never will -I love the little bugger . Russell and Blackwell just seemed short and if he was looking for size the selection seemed odd. I am not knocking them though they could well be our next champions.
What is confusing me MM is the club or Denis say one thing the go and do the complete opposite . It comes accross as if they dont know where they are at.

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If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

I don't think the club believes that 'big bodies' are our main priority, its the midfield. Consider the Blues in 2-3 years time:

Best case scenario is taht Livo, Norman and THornton are holding down the back, with SEtanta up forward and Fev / Whits kicking goals. Size looks OK.

Problem is that delivery to that midfield will be limited with Kouta and Campo gone, and STevens runnign a lone ship. Russell was required for pace, delivery and all round ability.

Despite all the requests for big bodies, its clear that Pagan needed midfielders more than size, thus Russell was selected.

Sadly, I think this is true.

galloping up diahorrea drive without a saddle

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Love Cricket? Love me

We are back to square one waiting for the next Kernahan and Greg Williams to come along...who were big bodied and built for the job...
Chambers big body.....? toned athletic. body built for speed but not big bodied.....something the likes of Archer, Brown..RuccuitoVoss etc is what we need and I get sick of saying it...Chambers is a pissy little winger who you cant build a team around..get some players of substance that will lead others and give confidence.....someone with attitude...who other players look up to...when is somebody going to understand

We have not planned properly in terms of recruiting for years...you cant but your way out of trouble anymore and need to recruit your core base through the draft and we have not been very good at it....in fact we have sucked badly and are now paying for it..we are in the hands of Pagan and Hughes and they need to get the equipment to get the job done.....how many years will that take?...well could be 2-3 if the next few drafts are a bumper crop and we get the next Judd, Ball and Reiwoldt or it could be ten years if we get drafts like 2000 where their was nothing outstanding to pick from. Hopefully our ex players have bred like rabbits and we have a ample supply of afther/sons chocies from a talenetd gene pool and get some freebies like Geelong did with Scarlett, Abletts etc.....if the moons are all in the right place with decent drafts, good father.sons etc then you get a decent cycle going....

Wallace, Eade , Clarkson,and Thompson are no magicians just fortunate as they got their chances at clubs with all the moons lining up in the right place..didnt take too many brains to read out Deledio, Roughead, Tambling, Griffen, Franklin etc... or stick Nathan Brown in the forward pocket and tell him to kick some goals....its all about timing and making the right choices....

Molsey, it's simple.

We came from way behind to beat two bottom four teams by less than a goal. We didn't deserve to win either of them, and if we had any self respect we should really write to the AFL and give Hawthorn the four points back cause I think they've gone on to prove who really deserved that win.

The other games we have either comfortably lost after never being in them or been absolutely smashed.

We are like school on Sunday - No class. We have easily the worst skills of any of the bottom four teams and we will be hard pressed to avoid the spoon this year. Hawthorn can hit Mark Williams laces out on the chest 10 times a week but, with the exception of Simpson, we can't hit the side of a barn door from 10 metres.

We came 10th last year because generally when a player changes clubs you get one good season out of them (see McKernan) before they go back to being crap. But if they were really any good, there club wouldn't have traded them in the first place. So we got good seasons out of 6 crap players last year. No suprises that they're all playing crap again now.

So in summary, at the moment we are the suckiest bunch of sucks that ever sucked. We are curently only capable of playing half decent footy when the opposition switches of for a quarter like Geelong in the 2nd quarter and Melbourne in the last.

I can't put that up the website though buddy... there'd be mass hysteria!

Touche

1. Unlike yourself SB, I am a Pagan fan and I don't think there is anyone else that could have done better in the situation we are in.
I don't consider Pagan coming out and saying the draft penalties hurt us and we really lack depth as an admission that we are bottoming out. To me he is just stating the obvious. The penalties did hurt us, and we do lack depth. There is no getting around that. What should he be saying? We have depth, don't worry about us, we can cover all injuries. We don't need Goddard and Wells.

2. To me those guys were deadwood. I became absolutely sick and tired of going to the football and watching the rubbish they threw out every week. As you said, everyone has their opinion on ordinary players, and I wanted them gone from the club long before they were. So yes, I would take any of the ordinary players on our list ahead of those three any day.

3. Once again, you have your opinion, i have mine. But the last thing I want to be doing is complaining about Walker in 10 years time the way I complain about Campo now.

5. I'm not telling you that Bryan is another Mott. But then, you can't tell me that he's not, can you? My point re: Bryan is that we should not be playing him just because he is tall. We did that last year with Mott, and he did NOTHING. We should play him when he is ready and not a moment before. There are quite a few guys ahead of him that deserve selection first.

And to answer the rest:

Chambers is a big guy muscle wise. He may not use it effectively (yes I agree Elwood, he is an outside player), but he is a big guy as in muscle, not height. You would like to think that he would be able to hold tackles etc, but so far we haven't seen that.

Unfortunately there aren't too many opportunites where you can draft big bodies. You draft kids and some will develop into big bodies. Do you think Voss, Riccuito, Archer and these guys were born with biceps?

To blame Pagan for saying one thing and doing another is unfair. There are alot of things we need. Pagan has said we need big bodies. He has also said many times we need talent, we need someone to support Barnaby, we need a midfielder, we need a backman - you can't do everything at once. Anyone that has developed a long term plan knows that. You figure out where you want to go and you work at getting there, sometimes with tiny steps, sometimes with major steps, but you need to work at getting there. You can't do it immediately. And it's a hell of alot harder to do when you are stripped of draft picks!!!

This list is going to be turned over alot more before we get there. Sometimes we won't know why decisions were made, other times we will. But I have no doubt that we are working to a plan. Do you really think Collins took over the club just to let it meander along plan-less??? Do you really?????

Absolutely agree BV..

Someone used the term "stunned rabbits in headlights "recently.As i sat there on Saturday they were my thoughts.A team shell-shocked and absolutely lacking in confidence!

Somehow we need to be pro-active rather than so reactive!

I think you've nailed it.

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NOW YOU'RE JUST SOME CLUB THAT I USED TO KNOW.

Disagree about playing talls MM......we should be playing and trying every tall and every player we have and finding out about them now.
I dont get this thing with Bryan that he is showing no form and deserves no senior games...has been in the best players in the last couple of Bullant games and is a true ruckman ....why do we love sending out the likes of Hotton, Merrington and now Prenda as pretend ruckman instead of going with the real thing ie Bryan..if French doesnt play Bryan should be in and lining up at the centre bounce. Ben Hudson and Biglands are not exactly the cream of the crop and if you are going to try a new ruckman I reckon this is the game...

re: Chambers/Riccuito and co...I dont remember Riccuito ever being small. ditto for Archer..they were well put together kids from day 1....
Brent Moloney 86kg, Jordan Lewis 85kg ditto ..they are out there if you know where to look .....we need kids who have that type of beef when they start...the Johnson boys from Essendon* were always beefed up kids, ditto for Soloman....check out the Abletts....Colin Sylvia.......Ryan Griffen, Cooney..all look nice starting size kids.....our always like U15's ...Kenyan U15's...so surprise Travis Cloke has made a good start either...tell me why that is ?

Elwood, I think we should be playing EVERY player we possibly can between now and the end of the year. We need to find out what all of them can do. However, I don't think we should be elevating them before they are due, My point with Bryan is that why should we play him just because he is tall? I know alot of people on here have been calling for him to be played, but I'm sceptical whether his form has been good enough in the reserves. Sometimes I think we get carried away with the talls, we are SO desperate for a decent one that we almost start calling for them to be played as soon as they link together one decent passage. If he deserves a callup, then I am all for playing him.

As for Chambers, I'm not comparing him to Riccuito (we can only wish), I was responding to SB's question about why he was drafted. And I do think one of the reasons he was drafted is because he was one of the "bigger" midfielders available, as well as having an abilitly to kick goals, which is something we also seem to lack - a goal kicking midfielder.

Who else could we possibly have traded for when the board decided we couldn't trade away our early picks? Riccuito's, Archers etc aren't exactly being thrown away, certainly not for 4th and 5th round picks. And certainly not for the players we are prepared to trade. Unfortunately we don't have alot of players with currency.

Alot of the players you list may be beefed up kids and would be more than handy - but the Abletts and Travis Cloke weren't available for us, we chose Walker over Sylvia (do you disagree with that selection?), Cooney was gone before we had our pick, Griffen I'm not 100% sure which draft he was but we were either ineligible if it was 2002 or we chose Walker instead if he was in the 2003. Geelong gave away Moloney for Ottens (we don't have a player that quality, everyone laughed at us with Whitnall), Lewis I can't comment on as I am not too familiar with him,

Sure they are out there, but you also need to be in a position to be able to get them. I'm not saying we can't get them, and we shouldn't, but once again, we have SO many holes in this list, where do we start Elwood??? What is our priority??