Just wondering what's gone wrong. I don't think last year or the wiz cup was an illusion. We're definitely capable of playing a lot better than we are atm. But I don't know why we're not.

Sure we might find a future captain in the draft but how long will it take till he's ready? Is Walker our future captain?

Walker may or may not be a future captain. I know he is competitive and i know he will be brilliant.
McLeod is brilliant but he really isnt a captain.

I think if you drafted a couple of early picks and whatever else is in the draft you will come up with a captain... and it will take time .. Were at ground zero.
Sure were not as bad as what we have shown.. but at the moment we are as bad.. and we can only go on what we are at the moment.

My theory is this... if you have 4 Walkers.. players with that something special. (usually found early) they push each other.. they compete with each other in the gym and on the track.. first to win a rising star nomination.. first to win the rising star.. first to win a BOG.. first to win a best and first... first to gain captaincy... and this ripples on throughout the rest of the team.
every great team has a core of great players.

those great players drag others along with them...average players just cant do that...theyre more into staying in the side next week.

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The selfish football mentality which seems to be plaguing the team at the moment. All going for the ball, failing to do team things.

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"A good composer does not initiate. He steals."

- Igor Stravinsky

It's never easy to do this after we have just sufferred a horrific loss. It's probably also silly to do it after we have had a great win ( the wizard cup). However even when we won the Wizard cup we all knew that we had some problems with the team and a lack of depth.

We all know that we have the youngest list in the AFL but as soon as the team takes the field we seen to forget it. Young footballers at every club lack consistency and are struggling to build up their bodies learn the team rules learn how each of their team-mates plays and show their skills each week. I think our biggest problem is that we need another 2-3 young match winners coming through and an early draft pick this season may help solve some of that problem. Whether we opt for a tall contested marking key position player or a pacy midfielder with good skills is the big question for me?

Our performance is affected by several issues with youth experience skill height and pace the major issues. We also have the problem that we have yet to put the same team on the field for several games and settle the side down. We are slowly re-building the list and if they all click we look good. Trouble is that this does not happen often enough for a group of supporters who are used to success.

We all saw what Andrew Walker did against the West Coast last year but this year he has been very up and down and the other clubs also pay him a lot more respect. Next year he will be stronger and better again. Archie came in last year and was a revelation takling contested marks up forward and providing a back up option for Barnaby. This year he is down on confidence and form but IMO started to come good in the ruck on Saturday and that may be the turning point in his year. Fisher gives us another contested marking mobile player and target up forward but we have yet to see him this year. Chambers has shown us some glimpses of what he can add to the midfield and a skilful goal kicking midfielder will be very handy. Simpson has shown some signs but he needs another 5-10kg of muscle so he doesn't get pushed off the ball so easily. Waite is having a very good year and is starting to produce with the consistency of the key position player that we hoped he would become. However for a variety of reasons he is filling the CHF role probably a year or two earlier than the MC planned and is being forced to run to the wings and too far from goal because of the pressure on our backline. We desperately need a contested ball winner or two with very good skills for the midfield. We fall away badly when Kouta is not in the middle. Eddie Betts has shown he has the speed and goal kicking sense we need in a forward pocket goal sneak however he hasn't been able to produce each week. I think that with some taller contested marking options up forward he should become even more dangerous. Sporn, Davies, and McGrath have yet to play 50 senoir games. Fevola is only 23. The Bullants reports indicate that Blackwell may very well be a find in future and Raso was expected to be a top 10 choice this year and we all hope Carlos continues to develop at the same rate. Most of our youngster are still at least another season or two away from becoming good regular contributors.

All is not doom and gloom but certainly the addition of at least 2 more top class footballers wouldn't hurt the team. The Tigers picked up Deledio and Tambling via the draft, Simmonds via the trade period and Knobel and Graham via the PSD. Add in a rejuvenated and fit Coughlan and Gaspar and that a 30% change to the team in one season so let's not talk about a long period languishing near the bottom. It may happen or it may not so let's just look at team as it is now and what we can do to imrpove.

Damn, we might as well delist Jordan Russell at year's end!!!

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C'mon Blueboys!

A heap of crap as usual Synbad, you didn't answer the question at all. Just pile on the abuse. Thats always been your tactic when challanged.

Now answer the question. How long? What is the PLAN!!!!!

Otherwise you are just talking crap. Or maybe you just do not know.

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A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty" -Winston Churchill

L.M 35-06

More abuse, more crap still hasn't answered the original question

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A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty" -Winston Churchill

L.M 35-06

And he never will because he simply does not know. The question has been asked for three years, whatever the plan is it is clearing not working. Or maybe we are in the middle of the plan and it needs a few more years to work. Lets us know Synbad is it working? Is it not working? Or is it still being played out?

It is easy to point out faults and lay blame on indivivuals but to actually come up with a solution other than we need to lose and finish bottom for evermore.

Some of us would rather look at what we can do now about improving our position, and Josh is right about confidence and self belief. It is about continual improvement, it is about teaching our young players the will to win, or otherwise we can sit around with our thumbs up our butts relying on the precioussss.

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A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty" -Winston Churchill

L.M 35-06

BM, he might get personal but what about the title of the thread? Sure, you two disagree on many things but It looks like the 2 of you are playing the same game from this angle.

That being said, do you really think a 3 year plan is sufficient given where we were in 2002? A host of retiring players, no good undercurrent coming through, and a whole heap of corporate issues plaguing the club. Look at us now, at least we have an undercurrent coming through. but it takes time, a lot of time, especially without draft picks and especially without some handy trades. Our 2004 / 2005 trade period was pretty much ineffective other than Chambers. We won games last year when other clubs were on a downer, and no one seems to be on a downer yet. We may scum some wins at the end of 2005 to redeem the team but we're still really up against it.

Although the question wasn't for me, I think it's a 5-7 year plan. We're 3 years in and have a younger list now, and with a bit more polish - say 2 skilful midfielders - we would have won some of those close games. Not this weekend's one, but we may have beatedn Freo and Collingwood with a bit more quality. It will take some time, have faith padawan!

You have a point Mosley and a good one. And I would agree that it will take a while to rebuild a team that is able to challange for a flag. But in the meantime I will not denigate those players that are here at the moment, many of whom are busting a gut for the club. They at least deserve our support and encouragement, O.K they may not be good enough and some are at the end of thier careers, but the way some carry on one would think that it the players fault we are in the situation we are in when it is clear that it is a combination of many factors some of which the club is clearly responsible for, some which we are not.

But to continually talk about a plan and not actually reveal it does not allow for debate and discussion about the 'plan.' One begins to think that there isn't a 'plan' at all but just somebody who likes to take cheap shots at players and people who challange them.

An old platoon sargent of mine justed to say. 'Fell free to crititise, but you had better have a solution, otherwise you are just a whinger.'

As said, I will support, while they at the club, our players, cheer them on and wish them every possible success, and be dissappointed when we lose, but I will not rip them apart to pursue an agenda.

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A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty" -Winston Churchill

L.M 35-06

Agreed BM. WE've got a lot of tryers at the moment, we just lack a fair dose of skill in my books. We need a few more top tier players. When we can send Sporn and Teague and the Wiggler back to a 1 on 1, Morrell back to a fourth forward role, Thornton back to CHB and can relieve Kouta, we will be a better team. My fear is that we will lose Kouta before that team takes shape.

And I shall continue to cheer those tryers on!

Can somebody please give me some tips on how to barrack against carlton. Ive cheered them on to win for the last 30 years i dont have a clue.
Do i yell abuse at the players and call them hacks and hope it catches on with other blues fans so they can join in and we can sap the players confidence even more. Do i call 'baaaaaaaaaaallllllll' everytime a carlton player gets tackled. Do i booo everytime we score or when we run on the ground.

Maybe one of you "throw games types" should have walked up to Big Nick on saturday when he was holding the ball up at the end of the game told him that you hoped we stopped trying to win so we could finish last.

Best. Signature. Ever.

Agree 110%

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Richard Pratt - A Carlton legend.

Nah, mine's better. Not that I understand it, but mine is better.

Nice one.

You could find out tips on how best to abuse your own team by associating with Richmond supporters....

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And so while others miserably pledge themselves to the pursuit of ambition and brief power, I will be stretched out in the shade, singing.

Why thank you Deano

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A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty" -Winston Churchill

L.M 35-06

Mark, i love your posts theyre very well thought through and really give me an insight to how your mind works.

I love how you ask me how long should we stay at the bottom.

My god thats an intelligent question!!!

You really made me stop and think. So i read this and i thought to myself.. BM has a vey good point!!..
How long does Synbad want us to stay at the bottom and not be a top 8 team?

So i pulled out the full sized mirror and had a very long look at myself BM.
I cannot believe that i would want us to stunt our current window of opportunity at a crack at finals footy and an outside chance of bringing the cup home to Carlton like so many other great carlton teams of the past.

You really make an excellent point Mark. The Carlton football club has the cattle to definitely play finals footy this year and next year have a real crack at a flag. I,the silly fool am advocating we just dont take a crack at our destiny.....

Now Mark... lets get serious!!!!
We are a laughing stock!!
Our list is a joke...Do you think any club fears us???
We all rocked up to the last game EVER at our spiritual home. Denis gave the players an impassioned plea for guts, backing each other up.. skill.. to reflect on past Carlton teams and past glories at our stomping ground!!!
We were smashed!!!!
Down without a real yelp!!!!
Not much out there....the supporters wanted to see something... instead they saw the end of the park and what seems like the end of greatness out on the field.

The only guy at the edge of their seat was you!!!!!Hypervenilating !!!.. id love to tale a peek at your fingernails..


If you dont want to watch Carlton lose i suggest you go and play 'skirmish' on weekends because whether you like it or not were not going to win too many.

We simply dont have the list!!.

Our senior players are either past their best or not interested!!!.

We lack true leadership.!!!!(Nicholls epitomised leadership... )

Ill just repeat this again Mark.....
In order to give your self a chance at winning GREATNESS and taking the club back to its RIGHTFUL P LACE youre NOT going to do it with the bulk of those players.

Which leads me to what we have to do....

What we have to do Mark... is bring in ELITE players. I really dont know if you watch the TAC... but the best chance of finding yourself TRUE elite talent is inside the first few picks. Get a crack of two of these in the top 4 and you give yourself a chance of building cornerstones into the future.
Cornerstones to add to Walker and one or two others... Cornerstones that will compete with each other for rising star nomination.. then Rising star awards.. then cement spots... then BOGs...grow bodies... Brownlows and John Nicholls medals... then CAPTAINCY/LEADERSHIP AND PREMIERSHIPS!!!!!
Cornerstones of the future are players like Jesaulenko, Nicholls, Kernahan,Walls, Johnston etc.
Do you still wake up on a saturday morning Mark and catch a tram into the city and go shopping at Myers till 12.15 with the store security herding you out before close 12.30 pm., were you catch a tram onto Princess Park watch the ressies . Then at 2 pm the game begins and the bluebaggers are kicking to the Robert Heatley Stand end where we bang on 12 in another typical Carlton premiership quarter?
You know... ??? The Southbys, Doulls, Walls, Nicholls, Jesaulenkos, Buckleys, Johnstons, Harmes,Silvagnis (Steve and Serge) Jacksons, Lofts, Crosswells, Gallaghers, Keoghs,Collins,Kernahans, Motleys,Bostustows, Bradleys,Koutofides,Rhys Jones,Williams,Browns,Sextons,Deans, Meldrums, Jones,Maddens,Glascotts,Ashmans,Naleys, Blackwells,Hunters,Maclures,Armstrongs, Austins,Maylins.... I can go on and on Mark... CHAMPIONS, LEADERS, SUPERSTARS and FREAKS.
All those blokes came in through the zone system or we pulled a string here and there to bring them to the club... thos days are gone Mark...!!!!!
The ONLY way to bring in talent these days is to draft them from the SAME POOL as everyone else. So mathematics tell you its pretty hard to bring in the true elite players into the club unless you have FIRST CRACK!!!!... or everyone else is just dumb!!!!!

...Are you following Mark or is this too hard to follow???

Forget what you and i grew up with . Its a different era!!.. The AFL have now succeeded in homogenising everything ... The grounds are the same ... the players are from the same talent pool.. so you cant farm an area like the rich Bendigo and Carlton precincts... the only thing that is different from one club to the next is the colour of the jumper.
Dannyboy was right when he said the AFL dont care about Carlton and Collingwood...theyre more interested in a succesful Sydeny and TV rights... theyre interested in having every club with a chance to win a flag every 16 years and a woodenspoon in that time too...
There is no more real culture... its being stripped away!!!
Welcome to the future where its all packaged up for footy and no warts,, no old smelly lockers... its just all sanitised.
There is still a small opportunity to play 'the game' pinch the player or two you need to help Walker to make the difference.. before they close that loophole up too.when that happens it will be one premiership each 16 years on average...which means for every team that wins it twice there will be a team that misses out on that cycle.

What you have to do now is draft a kid... and you have to wait your turn to draft the kid. So when you get pick 9 in a draft.. you have to wait for the bottom 3 clubs to take the best 6 players (like what happened last year) then you wait for the other 2 sides below you take their pick.. and THEN...and only THEN!!!!..can you take a pick... by that time the standouts are gone... and you pick up Russell and not FRANKLIN AND ROUGHEAD.,.(No offence to Russell but lets call a spade a spade here).. you ALSO miss out on a player from the PSD Mark... which then means.. that youre not actually going forwards. Then what happens Mark is that if you do have any good older players left theyre gone, retired and not replaced by another Kouta... so youre further behind the eight ball.

If Kouta was replaced with a Franklin or a Deledio.. youre a chance to start taking steps forward again... if he is replaced with a Vance or a Massie... well you get my drift... (I hope)..

At the end of the day Mark... it is better to have a good list than not have a good list.
Common sense would suggest that.
the only person ive ever heard to say they dont want the best list possible is YOU!!!!

So how long does it take us to find a good list? One that will make us competitive.. Im not talking about on the scoreboard Mark.. Im talking about the big picture. A flag.. Yiu know???One of those sixteen things they flew out in the middle of the park on saturday... or have you forgotten what winning REALLY MEANS???
The reason why it took a half an hour or so to get through the cermemony that reflected what and who the Carlton Football Club were about and should be about... and not 20 seconds...
Wanna be a another Geelong, Swans, Roys,Collingwood,StKilda??? Or do you want a chance to see us REALLY WIN!!!... by REALLY WINNING we are talking top four.. and not just top four but a solid top four with a sustained window of opportunity at PREMIERSHIPS.. which is what were all about at Carlton.Its the thing that we used to do better than everybody else.
We used to do it better than everybody else because we understood what needed to be done.

You talk about winning as if its about winning one from 3 games... thats just ridiculous!!!!.. thats small mindedness.. thats just petty and oblivious to what winning REALLY means.
Id hate for us to be an also ran.... win the odd game.. we go and have a wank over it on TC... only to come down with a thud the next week.Caught in no man`s land. North Melbourne style.
Im patient.. i can wait!! i know it will take time to rebuild with a REAL chance of REALLY WINNING what counts.

I have alot more patience for that than being battlers for the next twenty years because we didnt take the real telent over a couple of years and it cost us for several years.

Lets face it Mark, we have the WORST list in the AFL.. we can win 5 1/2 or 6 or evven 7.. instead of 5 and PP... but each week we win MEANINGLESS games to get to 6 or 7 wins.. were actually passing through ANOTHER BLACK FRIDAY!!!!... and costing ourselves what we lost that night.


Im dont count winning nothing games that actually cost us real long term success as wins... WINNING FOR ME IS OUR NEXT PREMIERSHIP!!!... if we dont win a premiership again in my lifetime id still like to think of Carlton as a club that had a real chance to win one.. not being what NORTH MELBOURNE is because they cant have crap years in case they collapse.. forever in perpetual nothingness.Winning just enough games to be outside of the eight but not low enough to really go forward!!!

See winning for you is small picture..winning for me is big picture befitting THE GREATEST FOOTBALL CLUB IN AUSTRALIA..... THE CARLTON FOOTBALL CLUB!!!!

Look at the legends from yesteryear out there saturday and look at where were at and where we have to go....


Im not satisfied with winning the odd arsey game by a point that ultimately costs us Mark... you are... it makes you feel all warm and fuzzy inside....

Either way , my suggestion to you is you go find something else to do on your weekends... we wont be winning many games in the short and mid to long terms if we dont get smart.... we wont be winning any games in the short term if we do.

Do you get what winning is for me and what winning is for you Mark??


See i think you have a loser mentality!!!!
,,, happy wollowing in rolling around in the mud of mediocrity clinging onto nothing but hope... the hope that enough crap players will turn into the types of legends that studded our club for the last 40 years..... a golden era .

Play the kids... delist the players who dont have their heart in it or arent good enough... and look to the future.to a premiership and not to a day to day survival



Its shouldnt be the 16 premierships that drives us it should the 17th...and beyond...

I hate a losers mentality....!!!!!
Losers as in perrenial nothingness.....

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Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

Unless you have a timetable Synbad - BlueMark will not be interested.

The 2006 Premiership will be leaving platform 3 in 3 minutes.

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"Hence you will not say that Greeks fight like heroes but that heroes fight like Greeks"?

Winston Churchill

The funny thing is BM cant give me a timetable on when shit players become good players.
I can give him a time table on when the good players are at tyhe platform next. ... thats Novembers National draft day.... it might be an express. ... not stopping at Carlton if 'the guy with the shovel digging trenches ' had his way.......

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Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

I agree with pretty much all of your post Synbad. But following on from your determination for us to win 5 games or less, it must be acknowledged that there are 2 ways of going about the rest of the season:

1) Appearing to do your best, but just being so useless that you keep losing; OR
2) Throwing games.

I think you're referring to No 1, but I'm not absolutely certain.