Nice rewrite of history - the main reason why our list plummeted was because pagan gutted the list of 23+yos by either delisting them or pissing them off that they wanted to leave. He then went on to bring in recycled players that ultimately all got discarded a couple of years later.

That is the ONLY reason why our 24-28yo bracket and hence the list overall is weak. A semi responsible coach would have realised the impact of a mass exodus of experienced bodies/players from the list. We would have been much better off turning over less players (rather than the dumping existing and bringing in recyled ones). This would have given a greater buffer for the youngsters at the time.

Yes Parkin oversaw mature age recruits in the chase for the 17th flag and most of the decisions turned out horribly. Injuries around finals in 2000-2001 to key players such as allan, bradley, ratten, silvagni and kouta meant we were never really a chance for the flag - Had we won the 17th things may have turned out quite differently. Its a lot easier to say we shouldnt have topped up in hindsight knowing what we know now (the injuries and the quality of player we picked up), had we managed to nab the flag though things would have been vastly different. At a worst case scenario, the trade value of the fringe players would have been significantly boosted.

Who do you think you are Herodo flowering tus?

If the players that Parkin had recruited were any good they would not have been de-listed in the first place.

Those decent 18 year olds we should have recruited in 97/98/99 would now be the support for Fevola in a team that should be challenging for a top 4 berth - notwithstanding the draft penalties inflicted on us in 2002.

Pagan made the choice to go with 22/24 year old hacks to support the very ordinary crop of youngsters we recruited in 2000/2001.

Re-write of history indeed.

Go back home and do a proper research grid and hand back your piece of work in the morning.

D- my friend and your lucky to get that.

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"Hence you will not say that Greeks fight like heroes but that heroes fight like Greeks"?

Winston Churchill

Question?? in 2002&2003 when we were docked, could we have of traded a campo for a 1st round draft pick (if a club was interested that is) or were we banned completely for participating in those rounds??

A coach with a semblence of people management skills and/or basic psychology would have understood the impact of combining wholesale list changes with putting senior players off side. A bit of forward looking would have revealed the impact of completely gutting the list of seasoned bodies. Had pagan kept some of the seasoned bodies from the previous era, he would not have had to go the mass recycled rout. Aside from scotland, how many of the recycled players that were brought in were significantly better than their predecessors?

Rather than bringing in some 14 recycled players, pagan could have kept 7 or so of the previous era players whilst looking at younger players through the draft. Especially in the face of draft penalties - have a look through the history of the draft, there arent too many bottom placed teams that churned players the way we did (especially if you have a look at the age of players turned over). The reason for that is the impact of effectively losing a generation of players on future kids coming through the system as we are observing now.

In 2003 the senior list of players had a 20% pay cut and had all the luxuries they had previously enjoyed under Parkin/Brittain taken away from them.

I'd like to see how you would cope with a 20% pay cut and a reduction in working conditions.

That is the environment Pagan found himself in, and by the end of 2003 most of the senior players had enough. That core group of players were gone.

The blame lay partly through the new discipline Pagan bought with him but also partly because of the consequences of having to reduce player payments by over a $1M.

To totally blame Pagan for what happened at the end of 2003 is naive.

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|♥♥♥♥♥♥| http://www.blueseum.org |♥♥♥♥♥♥|

We were barred from trading into the first 2 rounds - we had to take a player in any such trade. Still may have worked but Campo was mid-way through a high priced contract ending 2005; we would have had to have covered a lot of his pay and as cap was just one of our many problems at the time this wouldn't have done us any favours.

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And some additional background to the debate:

http://www.blueseum.org/cfc/tiki-read_a ... rticleId=3

I'm looking through the names of those 14 (19 overall) players that moved on and can't think of one that we should have kept, if only for their 'hard bodies', based on their performances in hindsight.

Sometimes I think we forget how poor our list was in 2003 for structure - there were so very few good 20-25 year olds on the list, which to me is part of why we're suffering now.

I dont think anyone doubts that the Club and Pagan have made mistakes since but we were woeful in 2002 / 2003, for a variety of reasons in each, with not much upside on that list to look forward to.

And the poor crop of 20 to 25 year olds was a direct result of our crappy drafting/recruiting during the 1996 - 2000 period - which Parkin was responsible for. And throwing away our top draft picks in 2001 for Corey McKernan was downright disgraceful.

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"Hence you will not say that Greeks fight like heroes but that heroes fight like Greeks"?

Winston Churchill

to lay thjis at Pagan's feet is just silly.

thr world knew we were stuffed we just ignored it

then the penalties came

and the cost cutting

and the need to cut the @#$%&! out of the salary or suffer more punishmentgs for being over again (2 years after the first salary rorting this was still the case - Sticks told me face to face).

Blame Pagan for the kids we have now, for their development, for our match day stategies etc but please, we were screwed and everyone knew it was going to take us a long time to rebuild almost from scratch and that's what we are doing.

but lets not try and blame him fpor Parkin's, Elliott's and the clubs total mismangement of the list tossing away early picks like paper for a ticker tape parade - we never did win that GF.....

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

Yes we were in trouble long before Pagan. I remember thinking that making the GF in 99 was like wallpapering over the cracks. We should have sacked Parkin earlier. Never Brittain. We were doomed then.

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carn the blues

Of course we were 'stuffed' long before Pagan but (excuse the metaphor) you cannot combat crap with smaller bits of crap.

The number of posts on these forums of 'conditional' disapproval truly astounds me.

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Just because I'm offended, doesn't mean I'm wrong.

so, be astounded....

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

I only have 2 words ....


Mick McGuane

Funny you should say Mick McGuane. When we traded for him I wrote off a letter to Shane O'Sullivan to express my disapproval remembering that the year before we traded our 1st pick in the draft for Davenport from St. KIlda. To Shane's credit he rang me at home. We had a brief discussion about drafting etc ... I remember saying to him "Shane, we are heading for a disaster" ... reasons for this is because it was obvious that Kernahan, Spalding, Dean, Hanna, Williams, Madden did not have many years left in them and it was no point trading a 1st round pick for a player that was going to retire around the same time as these players. As it turned out in later years we got Massie and Vance with our 1st picks ... as neither worked out for this brings four years (95,96,97 &98) of failing on the first round pick. As you can all see the cupboard is quite bare of 26-30 year olds. I could go on about other drafts but I think our problems started with trading round 1 picks. We have taught other clubs on not what to do.

If I could reverse a Carlton victory it would have been the 1999 preliminary final. Before you all shoot me down hear me out. From memory we finished the home and away season with 12 wins ... played the first final against Brisbane and got smashed ... we really should have been out there and then, instead we get rewarded with a home final against the Eagles. We go onto the prelim and then the grand final. By making the grand final we fooled ourselves into thinking we were close and tried to fill in gaps with O'Reilly and Mansfield. Had we not made the grand final then reality might have set in.

Is this acceptable.

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Just because I'm offended, doesn't mean I'm wrong.

In other words, we were screwed which ever way we went. No wonder they thought about throwing in the towel. It's a credit to everyone that they persisted knowing that there was little to no hope.

Yes, we recruited old hacks to play the 2004 season, but the only alternatives were to play an under 19 side with recruits from picks 50-100 or to continue with blokes who were clearly no good with no prospects to be there in future. We couldn't win, even if Roos was coach .

1995 National Draft
Pick 62 : Adrian Burdon, Tasmania U18, Tas
Pick 63 : Jacob Anstey, Tuggeranong, ACT
Pick 69 : Daniel Marshall, Dandenong-Southern U18, VMFL
Father/Son : David Walls, Southport, Qld

1996 National Draft
Pick 38 : Sam Smart, Norwood, SANFL
Pick 52 : Damien Lock, Bendigo U18, VCFL
Pick 74 : Chris Jackson, NSW-ACT U18, NSW-ACT
Pick 81 : Anthony Franchina, Carlton Reserves, AFL RES
Father/Son : Lance Whitnall, Northern U18, VMFL

1997 National Draft
Pick 7 : Kris Massie, Dandenong U18, VMFL
Pick 23 : Adam Chatfield, NSW-ACT U18, NSW-ACT
Pick 55 : Craig Black Dandenong, U18, VMFL
Pick 70 : Trent Hoppner, Preston U18, VMFL
Pick 80 : John Hynes, Prahran U18, VMFL
Pick 83 : Ben J. Thompson, Kedron Grange, Qld

1998 National Draft
Pick 6 : Murray Vance, Murray U18, VCFL
Pick 38 : Brendan Fevola, Dandenong U18, VMFL
Pick 58 : Ian Prendergast, Oakleigh U18, VMFL
Pick 67 : Brett Backwell, West Brisbane, Qld
Pick 78 : Not utilised
Pick 87 : Not utilised

1999 National Draft
Pick 60 : Richard Kelly, Perth, WAFL
Pick 73 : Ryan Houlihan, Murray U18, VCFL
Pick 80 : Jeremy Dukes, Prahran U18, VMFL
Pick 86 : Trent Hotton, East Burwood, VMFL
Pick 90 : Andrew Merrington, St Bernards, VAFA
Pick 92 : Adam Mathews*, Murray U18, VCFL
Pick 93 : Joe Allen, Gippsland U18, VCFL

5 picks under 50 in 5 years: Fevola - hey, he's pretty good, plus Vance, massie, Smart and Chatfield. I remember Pago saying 2 drafts ago how he'd like 5 picks under 50 in A SINGLE DRAFT.

source: http://www.blueseum.org/cfc/tiki-index. ... onal+Draft

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Formerly: Ackland the Wonderkid / Army the Wonderkid / quivering mess / molsey / Tony Lynn Fan Club

There is a another alternative. We could have had a mix of the above with the likelihood of a couple of the 'under nineteens' being still with us.

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Just because I'm offended, doesn't mean I'm wrong.

Ando the wonderkid - the question you have to ask yourself is who are the duds we recruited with the first and second round draft picks we traded away:

- Craig Davenport (on the kicked 5 goals in 1 quarter criteria)
- Sean Charles (burnt us in 1 game criteria - this criteria deserves its own chapter in Blueseum - Easton, Marchesani, etc etc etc )
- Mick McGuane (I think Headplant was backing me up there ).

There are other inspired trades - there were very few good ones - Matthew Lappin springs to mind.

We had no first or second round quality players on our list come 2002/2003. The draft penalties [REDACTED] us and Pagan cleared out all the "rebels" who didnt want to take pay cuts anyway - and replaced them with seasoned hacks - which ended up getting us a fighting 10th place in 2004 and picks 9 and 16. I hope Russell and Hartlett turn into 200 gamers, but geez I would have liked a go at Deledio and Franklin.


So 4th Chicken - please point out to me the revisionist history I would really like to know - I will put you up to a D from a D- but you really have a long way to go.

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"Hence you will not say that Greeks fight like heroes but that heroes fight like Greeks"?

Winston Churchill

I prefer not to ask myself anything about those 3.

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Formerly: Ackland the Wonderkid / Army the Wonderkid / quivering mess / molsey / Tony Lynn Fan Club

only 2 on that list are still on the list......

very very bad effort in that time......

Its a bit hard to apportion blame and how much to different players in this... but it is clear that everything after 1995 has had a material effect on the list, and that has generally been a bad effect

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