That's what i was hoping for. But then i thought to myself 'does that mean that we have been loosing because Livo ha been out?'
seem kinda silly to me.

Chambers would be a big help, i aggree with that. HOWEVER, i don't think just because some of the players that played in that final are still out is the reason to our problems. We just haven't played the same style of footy as we did in the Wizzard Cup!

They clear it easily from our 50 because we are not accountable and only like to run one way!

Do people think Denis' game plan would involve bombing it long to the hot spot? Think about it - Denis would not want the ball bombed long inside 50 when we have 2 key forwards who can only mark the ball when it is kicked in front of them.

Did people not see Houla, Stevens and Wiggins deliver the ball in front of Fev? I didn't see them bombing it long

Effes- Lance is never going to kick 100 goals in a year but is quite capable of kicking 50-70 goals . If you watch games closely you will noticed that tha majority of goals kicked are either in the first 5 minutes or the last 5 minutes of quarters and late goals in a quarter can really hurt an opposition. Lance is robbed of half his goal scoring opportunites as he is shifted into defence late in the quarter or for the whole game to cover for our lack of talls down there. Our lack of big defensive players has been obvious since we lost SOS and Mackay and co. The club has not tried to draft anyone other than young Harlett to fill this whole. We need a big ugly gorilla down back so we leave Lance where he belongs.

Also watch Lance when he is forward you would be surprised by the number of blocks he puts on and tap ons to other players that actually create goals

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Well he needs to do more than blocking and knock ons

Besides the last week or so, he has been left up forward for the majority of the games and besides one game against Essendon* he has not had a 4qtr performance

It's hard to judge a coach when he has a terrible list just as it sometimes is when he has a great list. (Remember Tony Jewell was a premiership coach and by a then record margin). How good would DP be with the saints list, pretty damn good. Bet britts wishes he had of gone to the saints when they wanted him. Still Thomas was going to knife whoever was there...but that's another story.

Really the coach is there to get the best out of his players and to improve them. Are we getting the best out of ourselves and are individuals improving? Clearly Fev is a huge talent who has finally decided to play (about time) and DP deserves credit for this one. Houla was a fair player before DP arrived, played seniors early in his first season and has barley been out and I think it was Britts who turned him into a creative defender? Other young players are going backwards - Sporn Davies , while Livo and Wiggo are struggling to improve. In fact it has been 2 steps forward, 3 back for Livo since 02 (when he was pretty good). Thornton was terrific from when he first came into the side and has developed as expected regardless of the coach. Norman is a real talent that DP had on song last year but he is close to wasting his footy career at present. Not sure if any caoch could get it through his skull what an opportunity he is wasting.

I guess I would question DPs ability to match the younger coaches with the subttety of set plays. I think Walls to Eade to Wallace to Daniher have all been strong in very subtle things. Players running certain ways, to certain spaces, unpredictability with match ups, creating mismatches, whereas DP seems a bit inflexible. Not adjusting the game plan to the players strengths etc.

He's there for another few years and the jury is out. Hard to make a definitive judgement at 8 games in, and we showed a lot of improvement last year, but we're are looking ordinary and if the team, and individual players are going backwards then the coach must take responsibility. They just look despondent at present and I don't know if DP is getting through to them. He needs to get through to them because you can't keep delisting half the list every year and expect to improve

As a policy I don't like sacking coaches under contract, and even if i had coached them in 03 we couldn't have been any worse. Personally I would have let Britts see out the last year of his contract and looked at a number of coaches. DP may have been available, Wallace, Eade, Gary O'D would certainly have been

Maybe Woosher is the one that got away, a young man, used to success, really tough but not set in his ways. He's got a fair list to work with, but he's done a great job developing them. Anyway we'll know more by season's end.

Lance didnt move forward until 10 minutes into the last 1/4 last week and as for him not doing much
4th in our goal kickers with 10 despite spending a lot of time in deffence
2 nd in our marks
7 th in total kicks
8th in total possesions
there are a lot ot others in the side going a lot worse.
I just wish Denis would leave him forward - If he has a bad day so be it not everyone plays good every week. Sadly I think while Denis is at the club Lances days are numbered and it will be a shame to see another Carlton boy go through no fault other than injuries and poor coaching moves in a game

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Sydney Blue = Captain Obvious?

They've tried though Sydney, Livo, Thornton, Norman... still assessing 2 of those. But we haven't had the picks to grab great champion defenders.

Plus, Hartlett is both a forward and a back - pretty sure he'll make it as a forward.

I would start Lance down back every week.
He lacks the discipline and motivation to chase and involve himself in contests up forward.
Down back, there is nowhere to hide.
Lance runs twice as much down back and imo, will gain fitness a lot faster.
He has the ability to work the angles and read the play.
Give it a chance, as Effes stated, he isnt helping the forward line.

As for Lance playing down back late in quarters.
Carlton have the least rotations of any midfields in the AFL.
We are most susceptible to be scored against late in quarters.

As for DEnis, I didnt want him initially but once the decision is made, you cant get cold feet.
We gave Denis complete control to rebuild the list and gamestyle comprehensively.
A lot of good Carlton people were hurt in the process.
We cant bail out half way. We have to grit our teeth and support him until we come out the other side.

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Mosely they will head into this years draft camp and pick all the atheletic types trying to get another Kouta. all clubs are doing it. If the club saw fit to experiment with two irishman in the rookie draft what be wrong in comming up to NSW or going to New Zealand and getting some big ugly front row forward and turning then into a backman. You dont care if your fullback ever gets a kick just as long as the pretty boy he is playing on doesn't . Most of these guys up here know how to mark the ball and most are fit . I think it would be worth the exercise because all the kids in the draft are all going to be skinny little atheletes with under developed bodies who are 3-4 years away from making a impact. I dont think it would take as long to get a mature age (say 22 year old) rugby front rower up to a level that he could take one of the opposition players out
You will probably call me Captain Stupid now but I have been called worse

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BV,

Why did you not want Pagan coaching us?

Nah, for that, I'd give you the title of Major General!

I just don't think people realise who difficult the role of Full Back is. We have been blessed by Silvagni, absolutely spoiled. In a way, we've also been penalised for Silvagni often killed the greats, and as Carlton fans we didnt get to see them.

It is so hard to learn the role, such a thankless task. Livo will do well to never get 5 kicked on him again and to get 2-3 stats a game. I'm all for supporting him for however long it takes.

I'm actually one of those idiots who thought Wayne Brittain was an excellent tactician and could have developed into an excellent coach.

I wrote a piece on TBV 2 years ago, early in pagans first season.
I didnt believe our list could play the Pagan style and I didnt believe DEnis could adapt.

http://www.theblueview.org/phpboard/vie ... t=gameplan

How far have we come since then?

A lot of thoughts in that post still ring true.
The problem is, we cant now change our mind.
The list has been turned upside down.

Denis is our coach and we need to support him.
We are to far down the track to turn around.

_________________
Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.

I remember in 03 we did bomb the ball long all the time, but we've now allowed for shorter kicks inside 50

Thanks for the promotion so quickly. Molsey
It was interesting reading that post from BV on TBV from 2 years ago and notice people still have the same doubts now.I hope we are still not having the same discussion in another 2 years.
Yes we were blessed with SOS but we are experimenting with the Irish boys and cant see why further experiments could not take place. I just cant see where we are going to find that big bodied backman. I also cant understand why Livo is not in the side either by all reports he is fit. I too like Livo and want him in the side every week - we just look better with him there and it also frees up thorton and teague . So when I see the team sheet this week I start to have more doubts about Pagan

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They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

Interesting reading both here and in BV's old thread. While I acknowledge the points people are making in criticising Denis I still have faith in him. I do concede that his match day abilities appear to be lacking sometimes, but that's easy to say from behind a keyboard.

It's a tricky one, if we'd won another game or two this year I think some of this talk would be less likely to come up. On the one hand it's great that we're all so demanding of success and are preared to leave no stone unturned in our analysis. But it's amazing what winning a game of footy does.

On recruiting I don't think Denis can really be held accountable for the 2002 and 2003 drafts. We had one good pick in those years and so far so good with young Walker I think. But as for the recycling and so on, even Denis would acknowledge that this was always going to be a flawed approach, but he had no alternative. With that in mind I think he's done alright. Likewise with Brittain, Denis is finding himself handicapped, to a degree, by our past draft failures. Sadly it seems we need to almost write off seasons 2002-04 as a time when we were getting back into the game so to speak. In some ways judgement of Denis should really focus around 2005-07.

As has been stated by a few others, and I believe this too, losing G&W was one thing, but I think in season 2005 these losses aren't hurting us as much as the failure to look to the future on draft day from, say seasons 1998-2002. Our draft in 2000 is the obvious exception to that, and while I think our picks from that year *might* have a long term future, how much better would it be if we embraced the 2001 draft, as just one example. The loss of G&W and possibly McLean will really bite in a few years time when those blokes are likely to be the gun players at their respective clubs.

While I'm not completely in support of the we don't have the cattle to play Denis' gameplan theory, I do believe that our list is one of the poorest in the league. And I don't necessarily mean our kids either, but the gaping hole in the 100-200 game players.

I hope we're get back up the ladder sooner, rather than later, but really I think we're in for a couple of modest years yet.

Whatever our results, I'll be sticking by the club and supporting them in any way I can.

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You're spot on.
Denis has changed things drastically from the pre season of 03.
Unlike some, I'm reasonably happy with Denis' match day work.
I agree with Lance up back and DeLuca is a must for our structure.
The use of Scotland down back puzzles me but I'm sure Denis has his reasons.
The players are mentally spent.
Our confidence is fragile from 3 years of poor results.
No coach can change that, only hard work and hard won success can repair the psyche of the players.

Our current slump can turnaround with one good quarter of footy.
Last week we were 1.8 to 8.3 at one stage.
Our confidence died with our conversion.

I've not given up hope yet.

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Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.

Neither have I BV.

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A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty" -Winston Churchill

L.M 35-06

Let's look at the differences you've pointed out.

Do you think Denis' directives have changed within 2 months? Do you honestly believe that?

I don't think there has been a change, I think that, like BV has theorised, that the players' confidence is shot. We could produce it, then bang, all of a sudden we can't. Sorry I refuse to buy the fact that Denis has changed his directives.

As a match day coach, he isn't the best, but he wants players to stick to a plan - it seems, however, that the players can't play according to simple rules.

What worries me at the moment is his lack of balls to drop senior players, I know I push this wheelbarrow all the time re: senior players, but Denis has to make a statement. I highly doubt he's had to function in this sort of environment before where players just refuse to listen.

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I agree Ryan but those concerns are symptoms of a lack of confidence.
Why do we kick to a contest?
Because players lack the confidence to hit a target.
When they are confident, they will back themselves in to pick a teammate out.
Now we play safe and kick to packs.

Why do we kick to a congested forwardline?
Lack of confidence.
We move the ball too slowly.
We dont take risks for fear of failure.
We dont run on and create in case we stuff up.
We kick wide instead of taking the risk of playing the corridor.
We allow our opponents time and space to zone back and create congestion in our forwardline.

Thats why players like Houlihan and Fevola are so important to our team.
They are risk takers. They have an undying belief in their own abilities and refuse to play safe, conservative footy.

We need one quarter of good footy.
One quarter of good conversion.
Young players gain confidence as fast as they lose it.
Lets hope tomorrow is the spark.

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Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.

Confidence is a key factor IMO. One only has to look at the Saints tonight for proof of that. 5 goals to 1 up at quarter time, the Crows went on to kick 14 goals to 3 for the rest of the game.

With any luck the build up to this week and the greater involvement of club legends during the preparation will have our guys thinking they're unbeatable on Saturday. Okay, it's a one off special effort, but hopefully, if things go well we can build on it...

GO BLUES!!!

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