Pagan doesnt destroy the kids - he fails to develop them.

He shows minimal trust in the kids - gives them virtually no licence to play in a positive manner.

Fisher - was shown little faith in year 1 (dropped at one point), despite showing plenty and averaging in excess of 1 goal/game
Simpson - first few games where he was given minimal game time
Kennedy/bower/russell etc - first few games - spent more time on the pine than on field
Plenty more other cases.

Walker - being played defensively for most of his career, Russell - defensive player for most of his career, Gibbs being played defensively.

Players being retained within the team at the expense of kids who were more deserving of games/gametime at that point in time - Martyn, Morrell, Ackland, Deluca, johnson, bowyer, etc

Overstressing the importance of mature bodies rather than playing youth - prominent example is young - On VFL form shouldnt have gotten a game last week, recruitment of mature bodies for 04 season.

Fact is Pagan is NOT the only reason why we are crap - he is though a significant part of the problem.

Aside from murphy, why havent ANY of our kids been given the licence to play their natural games as thomas, pendelbury, monfries, ryder, franklin, wells, etc have all been given in the early parts of their careers.

When was the last time pagan brought in a youngster from the reserves and gave them a run of 4-6 games with serious ground time and showed faith in them to perform (as opposed to 5 mins/quarter)

Wait until the end of the year. I'm sick of Pagan and his lack of tactics and player development, but let him see out the year, so we can see the PP

Although, I'd like a direction from the board to Pagan for players to be able to play with flair and natural skill and ability

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For some silly reason, you people want to assassinate him, and it's just rubbish. You people. All of you, ALL of you!

flair and natural skill.. they have to learn to do the easy things right before getting all fancy and trying to do too much.

You know you have a dud coach when supporters want to keep him to make sure we get an extra draft pick.

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"We used to sit around and talk about how bad the game plan was." Anthony Koutoufides

..sometimes in life an issue needs to be nudged winnie

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There's so much I could say...

I have to agree about Pagan's lack of faith in the kids, although Russell is getting a great run of late.

But I still don't think that sacking Pagan midseason is the right move to make. Not only am I unconvinced that Ratten or Mitchell are the right men for the job, I think it would destabilise the club midyear, something the kids don't need at the minute. Pagan hasn't lost the players and that's the only situation where a coach chould be sacked mid year.

Pagan's insistence on playing the young guys in negative roles says only one thing;

"Young fella, I think we are crap. what's more - I think you are crap too. We will cop a heap of floggings over the term of your career, so you'd better go back and learn how to flood.
Forget about all the skills that got you drafted in the first place - you won't be needing them anymore."

I'd love to see JR take a mark on HBF, take half a dozen bounces and slot a 55 m goal and cap it off by giving the bird to the coaches box.

When asked about the bird post-match, he simply smiles and says, " I'm just flowering sick of playing flowering negative football."

...........................I'm not holding my breath....................

Happy if he needs to go and someone better is around at season end for me.

Not mid season though.

Not sure how much should be read into it but Parkin said last week one of his 'trusted' sources at the club reckons Pratt will be keeping Pagan at the club until years end no matter what, and more than likely that is when the axe will fall.

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|♥♥♥♥♥♥| http://www.blueseum.org |♥♥♥♥♥♥|

Yesterday was Pagans 95th Game as coach of Carlton

I say wait another four weeks then sack him them

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If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

What, no F/S?

actually... thats a great point

Look, personally I would sack him for Ratten and start tanking the old fashioned way... by playing kids and taking a punt..... if we win, great!.... if we lose, great!

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Love Cricket? Love me

Dick Pratt was quoted yesterday as saying that as long as we are winning then Pagan's job is safe.

Can someone please tell me what games are we winning? Have I missed something?

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WE ARE CARLTON, WE ARE ARROGANT AND WE LOVE IT!

Dick knows the Hulk is a green monster!...

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Oompa loompa doompety dee
If you are wise you'll listen to me

Does anyone have any 'inside information' regarding how the players actually get on with/relate to Pagan?

Despite our ladder position again, and many TCer's bagging Pagan's (lack of) game plan, I often wonder how the players personally feel about the coach.

Would someone like Setanta, as a relative new-comer to the game, have more respect for Pagan than some of the more experienced players (not that we have a heap of those)? Although Fev, I'm assuming, respects Pagan for 'taking him under his wing' while Kouta and Lance no doubt appreciate the opportunities they've been given regarding game time/captaincy etc.

It's suggested by many that the Lappin/Pagan relationship isn't all that rosy. Fact or hypothesis?

Within any footy club, players will have varying degrees of respect for the coach, and other players for that matter.

Pagan's record screams that the end is nigh, but I'm still curious to know just how the players see him both as a person and their coach.

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THEY LIKE TO SEND UP!!!!!!!!

Until each team plays each other the same number of times, the AFL, as a fair dinkum competition, cannot be taken seriously.

He (Mr Swann) said the honour and pride associated with the club's traditional navy blue jumper was priceless.

I'm never a fan of giving the coach the arse mid-season.

Would prefer it to be done in the off-season, even if we start (quietly) head hunting now.

I must admit though, I've been a supporter of Pagan in the past, he's lost me this year. Sits on his hands too much during games, when a tweak or two would open the game up for us. Whitnall on Rocca and Houlihan on Didak yesterday is a perfect example. These matchups should have changed in the latter half of the second 1/4. Whitnall was finally moved in time on in the last.

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Richard Pratt - A Carlton legend.

bluedog wrote:




Hard to say for sure, however if i was a betting man i would place my hard earned on fact....

When was the last time you saw Lappin happy and motivated???

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Circumstance has no value. It is how one relates to a situation that has value. All true meaning resides in the personal relationship to a phenomenon, what it means to you.

No we should have all believed in Smorgon/Rose and Smorgonland ... like you....

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Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

I agree.

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1945 - End of round 3 Carlton was last.

Last round Carlton made the final four for the first time.

Eventual premiers.

That's what I'm talking about!

Whilst I agree that Pagan should be given the flick at the end of the year, I disagree with those who say he hasn't developed our young players. Simpson, Walker, Carazzo and others are becoming quality players, and some of the credit should go to Pagan. Walker's defensive game is outstanding, and the overall tackling pressure and attitude is very good in our young blokes.

Too often Pagan has a negative attitude towards our player performances after a game, and the occasions when he out-coaches the opposition are so rare, there's a sense of amazement when it happens.

Yes, Pagan should go at the end of the season because of the team's overall performance, but the one area in which he's done well is youth development.

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"The old believe everything, the middle-aged suspect everything, and the young know everything." Oscar Wilde

Nah, i'm gonna have to disagree on the whole Pagan & Developing our youth issue. He really hasn't impressed me all that much.

Take Walker. There are a few coaches out there (Rodney Eade Especially) who quite often talk him up to be something special yet every week he seems to be given a negative role.

Why line up on Thomas? Hell...........with a player of Walker's capabilities Thomas should be lining up on Walker, not the other way around.

And the whole Setanta issue...................well yeah, Denis surley has to get some credit, but so to does Mitchell.
And if you can remember back to last year when Setanta was dropped after one so-so half a game (no guesses where the other half was spent) but was kept as an emergency!
I craked the shits at that. Why bring him into the side to play half a game of football only to drop him the next week?
As luck would have it (luck for Setanta that is) an inujury saw him retain his spot and he was one of our best & the rest is history!

Chances are, he'll drop Bower this week cause he didn't rack up 30+ possesions in the 29min he was on the ground.

It's been a bit frustrating and i'm not really liking the constant trialing of Kennedy in the ruck.

I started to 'Kinda' understand where Pagan was coming from with the whole 'youth / inexperience / less than 40 games / mistakes' filled excuses but look at Collingwood. They are now 3rd on the ladder.........just as youthfull & 'in-experienced' as we are!

I dunno.................i'm trying..............I REALLY AM TRYING to see the positives with Pagan after so-often calling for his head last season, but it's a serious struggle.

I actually had a $20 bet midway through the 3rd quater whilst still in front (when Kennedy was moved to the ruck and we started playing negative football again) with my dad that we'd loose by 30 points..................i would have won too if Fisher hadn't of kicked that goal on the siren (Bastard).

It was just all a bit too predictable. Kinda like the StKilda game. As easy to read as a Herlad Sun Editorial!

There was even a 'Match Preview' i read the other day that out-lined excatly what was gonna happen! I can't remember where i read it but it was so just easy to guess and whoever wrote it was spot-on correct!
It made mention of:

1. Us getting of to a flyer.
2. Collingwood to easily reading Denis's book of 'bombing inside 50'.
3. Will get men back defender back into Carltons attacking 50.
4. Will over-run the Blues in the end by 20 points!

MY GOD! How is this possible?

I dunno guys. I know i made a promise.............................but i'm struggling........................i really am!

I think right now, i really need somebody to tell me why we need him & tell me what 'Good' he is doing for The Club, It's fan's and Our Players'?

Anybody?,..............................................

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"We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit"
- Aristotle