So which senior players do you see warranting a kick up the arse?

And how do you define "senior" players?

If you are talking about highly experienced players you must mean Kouta, Red, Campo, Barney, Lappin, Stevens or Fevola.

Come on - name names!

Theyre both tanking youre not going in to win the game..
Thats what most people are advocating... youre a bit slow BM....

Noone said we lose by not trying.. who wouldnt try when they might be cut????

You play the kids.. bodies cant match it.. so you lose!!!!

See you want to 'tank ' and you call it 'acceptable practice'

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Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

another option would also be bringing up current players in other postions...ie: deluca as a backman, Setanta to have a go in the ruck at AFL level, maybe then we can do something with the current list and not rely on trade week as much....it would also be valuable experience to Livo, Norman, Walker and Simpson if they were given a proper run week in week out...

whether or not its a dishonourable thing to do, or whether we should or should not 'tank' games, here's the reality; our current list will not do anything worth while in the next 5-10 years....we need some young talent...and we need it fast....given this is the last year for priority picks we must take advantage...whether that means finishing last or second last or third last....we need to pick up some quality players...!!

Ends.

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R A D I C A L B R O T H E R S

Inspired by the One-Minute Sculptures of Erwin Wurm

"All in all is all we are..."

Whitnall and Scotland are the first to spring to mind from last week´s game. Campo from other games, question houla and Fev ... never Stevens, Barney, Lappo. They´re great players, dont get me wrong but there´s a real smugness among some of these guys that worries me ... it´s a rot, a cancer that Pagan tried to cut out by getting rid of the likes of Beaumont, Manton etc.. We reward their bad performance, lack of effort with reselection? They´re meant to be professional but let´s face it, the truth is that some are not. The worst is, they may well be poisoning are younger brigade.

So we may be weaker by dropping them ... fine, dont care, at least the next time they play they´ll know that they are not bigger than the club. If they dont want to play for the club trade them ... we will continue without them with players like Thornton and Teague who would bleed for the club ... at least with guys like that u know they´ll give 100%. No player is sacred and to treat them as such sends the wrong message to them and the rest of the list ... sponsors and fans need to understand that.

First things first, some defintions. Lets say:

"Kid" = a player who has been drafted in the last 1-3 years

"up to it" = is unlikely to contribute on a consistant basis at senior level.

So what you're saying is that a "kid" with a potentially hugh upside to the club who isn't currently "up to it" DOESNT deserve a game, but a more senior player like a Bannister or a McGrath or a Prendergast DOES deserve a game even though these players have proved week after week that they also aren't "up to it" because they also can't perform consistantly.

What you're saying is that it's somehow more honorable to lose with an older side on the park.

That playing some other clubs hacks and rejects with known flaws is somehow "trying to win" MORE than playing a "kid" who may have more skill or football nous to offer, if less experience and body strength.

I think that's a load of crap.

To me, playing guys who proved at their last club, or have proved during their time at Carlton, that they aren't "up to it" ahead of a kid with potential IS not trying to win. It's being dishonest, to the club and its supporters. It's saying:

"we know this side isn't good enough, but if we can get 10 wins again we can fake it and keep the fans happy. And if we can get a bit more out of Lance this seasons we might win a couple more and fool them all in to thinking we're improving"

Personally, I think NO Carlton draftee should play seniors in their first seasons. Give them all a year in the Bullants. No pressure on them, just let them concentrate on getting their skills right and their fitness levels up. After that they should be fair game, and we should be selected them ahead of one dimensional players who are constantly getting exposed.

When Prenda had the ball on the HBF on Friday I turned to my mate in the stand and said:

"he can't kick short and has no long options on, he'll kick this 50m straight to a tigers player"

.... and he did. There are no suprises left with our second tier players. They have been found out over and over again.

Same goes for playing loose men in defence. I'd rather player our defenders one out on their opponents if it means we'll give a contest all over the ground. Even it it means they might get 5 goals kicked on each of them, at least we're not papering over cracks and trying to fudge it.

In a lot of ways, i think some people haven't learned anything from the last three years. We've had these "what is tanking/I hate the draft/salary cap/priority picks" threads over and over again.

It's taken our top 6 players all firing simultaneously for us to beat two bottom 4 placed sides by less than a goal, and people's start thinking that the players or the coaches are not trying to win??

It's so much easier to get on a high horse about tanking that it is to face the fact that despite all the shuffling of deck chairs we're simply not good enough .... and all while the only evidence that we had actually improved was that we won some practice matches this year .... it amazes me really it does.

btw - That's not directed at you Prez, it's more of a general comment.

Moderators - can we just open a Talking Tanking/Priority Picks forum now so that we don't have to have these threads cluttering up the main forum for the next 16 weeks? Otherwise it's going to be an even longer season ...

You can actually pick youth over experience and still win. Arguably, Tim Walsh and Camreon Wight were not ready for senior AFL football for the Bulldogs last week, yet they were still picked ahead of the likes of Jade Rawlings, Peter Street, Daniel Bandy and Steven Koops. This against a team rich in talls, yet the team still won. Options 2 and 4 are most certainly not tanking.

I haven't yet seen a side deliberately coached not to try and win a specific game of football. This is different from coaches who were just not up to the mark and coached poorly as a result. I've also seen plenty of sides that were rubbish and lost as a result.

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"You've got no fear of The Underdog, that's why you will not survive"
- Spoon, 2007
- Western Bulldogs, 2016

high horse! Well what about your High horse nightcrawler - oh i see your high horse is allowed becasue only you can see correctly, pffft give me a break.

You set the definitions and then you argue from your definitions - well yeah, that'd help.

I'll say it again. This is not about carlton, in fact for me it isn't even about tanking which is why I gave a silly response to this thread.

For me the real issue is PERCEPTION. It seems to me many people think clubs tank, think clubs should tank, think it is wise not to win 10 games when 5 games will get you better picks etc.

Now in my opinion that is against the very essence of sport which is to compete. What we have are supportes hoping we do not compete -
bullshit?

Well how about if in the last game we are sitting on 4.5 wins, how many supporters will be wanting us to compete, and how many will want us to lie down?

This is the real issue. Not the clubs, nor players etc. But that in the stands in certain clubs in any given year you have people hoping their side does not compete (and by this I mean give 100%).

You think this is good?

I'll say it again the quicker the PP and in fact the whole system is rejigged, the better. Not because clubs are 'tanking' but because some supporters hope they are tanking!

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

oh and the reason i am so angry about this is because I had an argument with my 12 year old son and his two cousins (14 & 16) who want us to lose every game and get the 1 and 3 rd picks.

Gee great......Now there's passion. His two cousins don;lt even come to the football anymore (we'll wait 'til we get the picks and are good again).

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

Give em some caffeine tablets, that'll fire em up.

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Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.

Everything except 2 & 4 are tanking and totally unacceptable.

2 might cause you to lose more games which may be beneficial in terms of draft picks and is what Tony Shaw did in his last year to secure Josh Fraser for MM.

The risk is that the young players exposed to repeated heavy defeats will be scarred (not saying this happened at Collingwood) so you have to balance this with selecting depth players to protect them.

BTW, I could not disagree more with the premise that you always select your current best 22. That is a recipe for long term disaster with today's short lists. You have to blood developing youngsters. I would much rather see Bell and Sylvia playing and struggling with the pace than Godfrey and Rigoni who may at this time actually deliver slightly more but have reached their peaks.

The only time you play you best 22 without exception is big finals.

Danny. I wholeheartedly agree.

My Dad has seen 8 flags (I've seen two) and has brought me up teaching me about our great club and our dominant, brilliant history. I sat watching videos of the 60's and 70's with him and he spoke with real pride about the navy blues.

Now we go to games and he hopes we LOSE. There's something awfully wrong about it.

We'll still go to every game as we always have, but when you go hoping to LOSE it's a sickening experience.

BTW. Can someone discover a way to freeze me for 6-7 years and then defrost me when we have 22 players who can hit a target 30 metres away. It;s just getting too painful!

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They will know that they've been playing against the famous old dark blues

Agreed, you need to have the ability to call on all 38 on your list to be able to contribute at some stage during the season. You need to ensure that the load is spread and that heavy reliance on 4-6 key players is minimised. Continually relying on "solid citizens" at age 25-28, who have limited ability, at the expense of blooding young talent, is long-term folly IMO.

Port is a classic example of a side that generated significant contributions from their "worst 6". That was a great hallmark of their success over Brisbane in last year's GF.

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"You've got no fear of The Underdog, that's why you will not survive"
- Spoon, 2007
- Western Bulldogs, 2016

And Brisbane is an excellent example of not getting games into development players and finding they need to do it all at once now and are suffering.

suffering! Bah, let me tell you about suffering

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

Put Brennan and Hadley into that lineup and they would improve their win/loss ratio...those are two youngsters they have blooded and both can play...injuries have really hurt the Lions and while they are not as good as what they were I dont think their future is all that bad either....they will continue to pick up local talent from NT and Qld where they have insider trading knowledge and will use their salary cap concessions to advantage...I would have taken the punt and traded Akermanis for a decent draft pick...

Jeepers

We are only a win and a half from equal sixth - All you naysayers should stop saying nay.

Sure we played two craperooni games in a row - so what - we got thumped by 15 goals on 5 occasions last year too. Its only Round 9 this week.

WE ARE STILL A REALISTIC CHANCE TO PLAY FINALS FOOTBALL IF WE CAN RE_CAPTURE OUR WIZARD CUP FORM.

There I've said it!!! - This is a very open season and its only now starting to unfold.

I think that our players will gain much more by playing for a finals spot then playing for low picks.


Imagine that you are a young player - say Trent Sporn or ADL - You are trying to eke out a career as an AFL Player.
You are aware of your capabilities and limitations but want to live the dream.
Denis Pagan is showing faith in you and playing you most weeks because he believes that you may have something.
Why on earth would you play below your ability and try to lose?? So that some snotty nose kid can be picked up at number 2 or 3 and take your spot and end your career?? No way jose
You will play your best possible football. You will become more disciplined, you will make Pagan fall in love with you.
With the youngest list in the AFL there is no way that our guys will be giving anything less than 100% each game.

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Ecclesiastes 1:4, "One generation passes away, and another generation comes: but The Blues abide forever."

Boo hooo hoo! Don't nake me laugh!

You are in suffering kindergarten you spoilt brat -- fat on flag after flag

Sedat! and I have been to the University of Suffering.

I am a Master of Suffering and I venture to suggest he has a Ph.D.

Call me in another 30 years or in Sedat!'s case another 40 years.

No Dark Navy, you are sh1te -- from an expert in sh1te teams, I have seen plenty.

Notice the "IF".



Hey old55 I just noticed that you only have 6 posts on TC. Please visit more often as i know that many people on this site enjoy your posts (although if you lose to your mob on the weekend dont come back till tuesday or Wednesday)

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Ecclesiastes 1:4, "One generation passes away, and another generation comes: but The Blues abide forever."

Thanks DN, I finally got over here after the TBV finale (don't mention the war, I did once but I think I got away with it).

I am a footy forum slut and there was none finer than TBV IMO and I see many of the same top quality posters here so I will visit.

I'll come Monday win or lose -- I'd like to say good luck, but ...