If I were Swann, I'd have Pagan in my office and be offering him the choice of 2 options ...

1. Start behaving like a professional coach and working with the VFL coach, as required of someone in his position.

OR

2. Flower off.

Fairly simple choice for Denis Pagan.

The most significant recruits for the Bullants are those recruited by Carlton. Hughes selects them, taking into account the requirements of the Match Committee as he understands them from his weekly attendance at Match Committee meetings.

The most important players for the Bullants are the Carlton listed players who play with the Bullants. Their training is largely effected by Carlton coaches. How many training sessions does Mitchell supervise with the Carlton listed players? Doesn't he only hold 1 training session with them? What is the comparative effect of the training delivered at Carlton and the training held by Mitchell?

Seems to me that the performance of the Carlton recruiters, strength and conditioning personnel, and coaches have a pretty direct impact on the quality of the 12 listed players available to the Bullants under the 12/10 rule or the larger number available against aligned teams.

According to Barry? Remember that he was an assistant too last year. Are you suggesting he didn't bother to discuss how to use Setanta with Pagan? If so, maybe the absence of communication now isn't such an issue.

I notice you call him Barry but use Pagan's surname. Are you mates with Mitchell?


During the training sessions I saw last year, Dempsey and TD did a lot of work with both of the Irish boys. Were Mitchell's contributions mostly during Carlton training sessions, or in Bullants sessions?


Yep, I was referring to finals and accept that it didn't come out that way. Substitute "final" for "game".

As I've suggested before, his hands are tied. Sticks is preventing him from sacking Mitchell, and he doesn't have the power to give such a direction to Pagan. Looks like a stalemate.

..

The way I see things it is part of Pagan's duties to liaise with all his deputies. He has no right to alienate anyone. I am a parent ... it is my duty to liaise and develop a positive relationship with my children (all of them).

If Pagan cannot by years end restore a positive relationship with Barry Mitchell then I believe the former must be removed. If he cannot work towards a better relationship then he is putting his own interests before the club.

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"can't kick ... don't pick"

Pagan is probably feeling a sense of disloyalty from the club. When it decided to retain him right or wrong it should have terminated Mitchell's services.Simply one or the other. Being the senior coach a reasonable expectation on his part would be for him not having to deal with some one who has undermined him.

Now Swann has been asked to sort this out and we have again gone for the soft option. One has to go, as simple as that and we must pay out their contract. Kernahan has a lot to answer for this current predicament as we look more and more like the dysfunctional United Nations.

Welcome to Carlton, boys ...

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I just want my old club back ... (edit) maybe I have!

Maybe there isn't much of a comparison between parenthood and being a senior coach. Or between non-managerial co-workers and being a senior coach.

The fact they're so intent on keeping Mitchell gives the impression Denis won't last beyond the year. No club otherwise would let this continue long term. Mitchell's done well and is obviously considered "Long-term" by the club and if the intention is to get rid of Pagan soon they probably think that's there's little point in getting rid of Mitchell. Hence they'll just put up with the situation until then.

Again the common theme of Sticks not being up to it. He should get out of the football department and leave it to Icke and Swann. Great man Sticks but bloody awful football administrator!

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"our electorate seeks less to be informed and more to be validated." Sad times.

If the plan is to get rid of Pagan at some stage soon, which, by the very fact Mitchell is staying, seems to be the case (can think of no other reason), it's pointless getting rid of Mitchell. Why lose both, especially when the latter's done very little wrong.

If the decisions are being made dispassionately, then you'd be right Jim.

But if Sticks and Gleeson are motivated by protecting a mate and preventing a fallout over their role in pushing him forward for the senior job, then you can't draw those conclusions.

Sticks leading a move to prevent Swann and Icke from sacking Mitchell doesn't seem to me to be one based on Mitchell's intrinsic worth. Otherwise they would have merely made their case to Swann and Icke, confident that they would acknowledge that Mitchell had to be kept.

By making that move, Swann and Icke have no credibility if they try to lean on Pagan. Pagan would think (with considerable justification) that they were taking the path of least resistance left open by Sticks and Gleeson. Swann and Icke would be nothing more than errand boys for Sticks and Gleeson. And Pagan has already refused to be give in to Sticks and Gleeson.

We can speculate on the "mate's" thing but Mitchell is supported by Pratt too. Mitchell's done an excellent job at this club and considered "long-term". If Pagan was considered "long-term" by the club, "mates" or "no mates", Mitchell would be gone for the sake of the club. The club's bigger than Sticks or Gleeson and if the rest of the club weren't happy with the current situation, pressure would be brought to bear on them to sack Mitchell. In a big organisation the "mates" thing wouldn't last 5 minutes

For the sake of argument, Jim, would you agree that if Mitchell had been working against Pagan for much of 2006, he would have done something wrong?

Because clearly Pagan believes he was. None of us can know the truth of the dispute. Both of us can mount a case regarding whether he did or not. But for you to assert that he's done very little wrong is to me an assertion that he only presented when invited out of the blue. You can't know that any more than I can know that his involvement went deeper. Both are speculation.

Finally, whether he has done anything wrong is not the issue. I would have thought the best interests of the club are the issue.

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“It is a state of mind, a system of belief, a way of seeing the world, a deep faith that, because you are Carlton, you belong to something great.” - Mike Fitzpatrick articulating what Out of the Blue means.

Pagan believes Mitchell was dis-loyal.

Why did Mitchell have to restort to being disloyal?

My absolute belief is that Mitchell saw that Pagan was doing a terrible job, I believe Mitchell's actions were for the betterment of the club. He could no longer stand by and let Pagan and Elshaug destroy the club morale completely. Don't forget Fraser Brown's statements of Pagan.

Of the two, I truely believe that as of today Mitchell is clearly doing a superior job to Pagan. Yet, some want Mitchell sacked.

Ridiculous. If anyone deserves to be sacked it is Pagan, remember this is the same man who wanted to recruit Gardiner, Zantuck. The same man that Jordan Russell wanted to escape from. Pagan is not a long term solution hence why should he dictate Barry Mitchell's fate.

Sorry Pagan supporters, I strongly support the continued employment of Mitchell. Pagan is the one who can sod off.

Dennis.

Yet Sticks in his interview with Caro last Saturday stated that the club should not have gotten rid of Elshaug or Mulkearns!

So if your assertion is correct, then Sticks certainly did not have the same belief as Mitchell that they were destroying club morale.

I don't rate Fraser Brown's comments as he believes that only mates need apply for any coaching positions.

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“It is a state of mind, a system of belief, a way of seeing the world, a deep faith that, because you are Carlton, you belong to something great.” - Mike Fitzpatrick articulating what Out of the Blue means.

All this hypothesising doesn't really get us anywhere. None of us truely know what happened behind the season, what Mitchell's motivations were, what Pagan's real thoughts are etc.

All we can do is to look at the situation AT THIS MINUTE and ask, 'what is in the best interests of the Carlton Football Club?". Because the status quo, as seems to be agreed upon by most on here, is unsatisfactory.

IMHO, as I have stated before, there are only 3 options. Get them to get along with each other, and if that is not possible, then sack Mitchell or sack Pagan (agree with you DUC).

We're talking about leadership here. There was a post a while back, when Pratt came on board, linking to a speech that Pratt gave about leadership. One of the key attributes of strong leadership is to lead by example, to set the highest standard.

In our current situation, the supposed leaders of this Club, Pagan, Mitchell and Kernahan (and yes, perhaps even Pratt in this instance), all seem to be failing in that regard.

Clearly we still have alot to learn.

And yes, I agree with Taff and Conundrum...the common denominator in this shambles, once again, is Kernahan.

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Mens sana in corpore sano.

Bring back the laurel wreath logo!!!

Right now Pagan is the coach and therefore Mitchell must go. You can spin it anyway you like but Pagan should run his department as he seems fit as he likes for as long as he is top man. For the good of the club Mitchell MUST GO and NOW.
Enough is enough, stop giving everyone ammuniation! Settle this soon Pratt, please.
Sticks and others can follow if not happy.