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The Tyrant
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PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2005 8:47 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan
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I love Johnny Farnham

if you want me, come and get me.....

this time I'm losing to win........!

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TruBlueBrad
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PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2005 9:21 pm 
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Stephen Silvagni
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HTP wrote:
maxyblue wrote:
HTP wrote:
Something I've not understood in my six years of following footy - if Carlton is this proud and mighty club that had a bunch of cash to buy players in the old days blah de blah - why have we only got 16 premierships? Why would we be proud to have won only two premierships in the last 20 or so years?

An article yesterday suggested Kernahan thought we were setting up for a dynasty ini '87 - never happened. Am I completely out of place suggesting we THINK we're great but aren't? In other words, with the all the money we were throwing around in the 80s etc - did we under-achieve?

I'm not inviting comparisons to St Kilda's and Geelong's and Melbourne's etc lack of success - I'm talking about this proud and mighty club that, on paper, appears to be underachievers

I'm sure it's hard to win a premiership but that's not the point. If we're so amazing - they'd be a cakewalk [oops, wrong team].

Opposition supporters continually label me arrogant because I'm a Blues supporter. Er, I've not seen anything in six years to be arrogant about! It's because of your history, they say! What history? In the last 20 years I would rate the 90s Roos, 90s WC, the Bombers almost all of the time, Hawthorn 80s, Brisbane 00s ... as teams with a better history.

The greatest team in the comp? Not through my eyes

ENDS


htp - don't mean to be a smart-arse but the first phrase in your post answers your own question.

also ... "history" didn't start in 1990!!

BUT, i agree though that the reality of the last 20 years are not what is often reported, but that's cos the people reporting it have taken as gospel whatever that buffoon ex-president said.

sticks may have thought we were creating a dynasty in 87, but wes lofts obviously didn't agree when he told walls that he had just seen the worst carlton side win a flag.

don't buy into all the cliches and urban myths!!


hey Maxy, you're not being a smart-arse, but your reply deserves a reply

Although I have followed the game for only six years, I HAVE used my unique powers of 'conversation' and 'reading' to discover the history of the CFC. Through my relationship with one of the club hierarchy's daughters I have learnt an AWFUL lot about the club. So - don't be deceived by my scant years of fandom!

ANYWAY ...

The reason I mentioned the last 20 years is that that is period that pretty much ALL of the posters on this site are familiar with. I don't know of many 100+ year olds who contribute to internet forums so figured it was safer to use the last two decades because we have ALL been through SOME of that period.

Something I was hoping to steer discussion toward was this - if we failed dismally [well, two premierships in 20 years isn't dismal but it isn't great when you're supposedly the best] using the old system of throwing money around etc, why do we insist on calling ourselves wonderful? And by extension, if that was the result when we were wealthy and at great advantage to use the existing system to our ends, what are we going to be like in this newish system of draft picks, concessions etc?

Oops - just re-read and I sound like a smart-arse!

Anyway, this post is hijacking a thread that was probably off to retired thread land so I'll leave it at that. Suffice it to say, I just discovered the 'View My Posts' button - hence my revisitation

Bye for now


Answer to your first question is that we probably did under achieve in the 80's, not from the 87 team but from the early 80's. Had a great team. Probably should have won 4 in a row from 79-82 and probably shouldn't have stopped there. If i remember injuries cost us badly in 83, Fitzpatrick with an ankle (?)

As for buying premierships, the players we brought to the club in the 80's, Hunter, Buzz, Sticks, Braddles, Dorotich, Motley, Naley, Sartori....in effect it wasn't that easy to 'buy' a premiership.

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Blue 2 the BONE
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PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2005 9:34 pm 
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Adrian Gallagher

Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2005 11:25 pm
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´Tank´, ´dive´... come on, they´re as emotive as a racial slur. It´s not possible to ´throw a game´ (emotive again, another fave), there´d be an AFL/ATO/TAB/ASIO investigation.

Simply dont reward poor form by senior players. Simple.

Doggies dropped Rawlings, Pies dropped Woey ... bad form doesnt get excused by a big pay packet. It´s crap. Drop Whits, drop Scotland... drop anyone not willing to follow the game plan. Give some of our future players some game time, the faster they get to 50 games the better for us. It may mean we dont go so well but let´s face it, this season is over.

The ´80s were wonderful .... time machines, mines in the shop.
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bluechucky
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PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2005 9:56 pm 
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Ken Hunter
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Lose a battle to win a war.

Thats the system as it stands.

You don't have to be down the bottom long - 2 years of priority picks gives you:

4 early picks (to end of round 1)
2 quality unsigned senior players.

Add some decent 2nd 3rd round picks, some picks from trades, and a couple of decent father son picks, and you can have a young but decent team to build around, especially if you throw in the kids we currently have like waite, walker, blackwell, et al
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bluechucky
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PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2005 9:57 pm 
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Ken Hunter
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Blue 2 the BONE wrote:
Simply dont reward poor form by senior players. Simple.


Not sure how we can replace 20 odd players in one go.
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Sydney Blue
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PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2005 10:40 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko

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Can someone name me a side that has bottomed out and actually won a flag. I think everyone is assumming StKilda has got this years flag won already. The draft has been around for some time now and have a look back and see who won flags.
Port 2004- got help from the AFL in starting out but never played for draft picks
Brisbane 2001 -2003-assisted by merger with Fitzroy and salary cap help never played for draft picks
bombers 2000 - cant remember them on the bottom
North 1999 - same again
Crows 97-98 same as Port
North -didnt bottom out
I dont know exactly what year the draft started but you could go back further.
Now look at two sides that are in the running for the flag this year Geelong and West Coast. When did they ever tank a year.
Carlton and its supporters need to stop crying and just go out there and play good footy. In 1978 we had a crap start to the year ended up 4th and won in 79. That side wasn't exactly great but they played with spirit and gave it their all. I cant see why the same cant be done now.

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AGRO
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PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2005 10:49 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko
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Sydney Blue wrote:
Can someone name me a side that has bottomed out and actually won a flag. I think everyone is assumming StKilda has got this years flag won already. The draft has been around for some time now and have a look back and see who won flags.
Port 2004- got help from the AFL in starting out but never played for draft picks
Brisbane 2001 -2003-assisted by merger with Fitzroy and salary cap help never played for draft picks
bombers 2000 - cant remember them on the bottom
North 1999 - same again
Crows 97-98 same as Port
North -didnt bottom out
I dont know exactly what year the draft started but you could go back further.
Now look at two sides that are in the running for the flag this year Geelong and West Coast. When did they ever tank a year.
Carlton and its supporters need to stop crying and just go out there and play good footy. In 1978 we had a crap start to the year ended up 4th and won in 79. That side wasn't exactly great but they played with spirit and gave it their all. I cant see why the same cant be done now.



Port hid all their quality draftees when they knew they were joining the AFL, everyone knows that.

North had a quality list of players that they brought through from their Under 19/Reserves Squads via Denis Pagan prior to the Draft really taking effect.

Brisbane, Geelong and West Coast obviously Drafted very smartly in the in the Second and Third Round (yes it can be done - but as we have been saying a Judd, Hodge, Cooney or Walker doesn't hurt.

As for Carlton in 1978 nearly the best list in history that started the year 1 win 6 losses and went on to make the finals - everyone knows that Ian Stewart created a lot of unrest and disharmony in that team and Jezza went on to "GIVE EVERYONE JOBS & THEY WENT OUT AND DID THEM". :wink:

How many from that team were in our team of the Century - Doull, Jezza, Fitzpatrick, Keogh, Southby, Johnston - not bad for a shit side. :wink:

My bloody oath he did. :wink:

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The Tyrant
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PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2005 10:53 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan
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AGRO wrote:
"GIVE EVERYONE JOBS & THEY WENT OUT AND DID THEM". :wink:

My bloody oath he did. :wink:


we could do with some of that now, AGRO.

RUSSELL ON DAVEY

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Captain Obvious
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PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2005 11:20 pm 
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Garry Crane
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Winning 5 games or less entitles you to a Priority Pick

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Sydney Blue
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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2005 8:31 am 
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Alex Jesaulenko

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OK Agro the 78 side might not have been the best example the point I am trying to make is that the season was over we were playing crap and they turned it around and went on to become one of the greatest ever teams. Who is to say that some of this current crop of players cant do the same thing as they did. I just wish everybody would stop using our draft penalaties and the draft as an excuse as to why we are losing and look at the real isues . We should have been able to channel that aggression that the club and supporters has towards the AFL through to the players and get them playing for the jumper not the pay packets. What would you be thinking if you were Kouta or Campo or even Lappin comming to the end of your career knowing that the club had no intentions of playing for the now but were looking 4-5 years down the track .this might be the reason we get pumped by 70 and 80 odd points so often.

I will repeat what I said earlier no one has won the flag by tanking the season for draft picks and the Carlton football club and its supporters should not even be thinking of it.

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Elwood Blues1
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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2005 10:11 am 
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Mike Fitzpatrick

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I prefer letting nature take its course..if we are so bad we get priority's picks then fine...however going out with the intention to lose every week doesnt sit right with me either. Part of the satisfaction in winning a flag is the process..coming back from rock bottom and having the odds against you and being successful gives me a bigger buzz than knowing I had to play dirty to get what I want.......climbing Mt Everest is about climbing..not getting an elevator ride to the top......doing it the hard way is probably more rewarding to me...
I understand both sides of the argument though...no success means no members, no sponsors, and tin rattling and the club living on the edge....
its the old "a drowning man will clutch onto a serpent "analogy....Collingwood have already started playing the kids..is it for real?..playing the kids for development or playing the kids knowing they will be smashed and get the rewards of early picks....I would suggest its the latter..do we get down in the gutter and play dirty like eddie and Mick or are Carlton better than that?
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windy
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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2005 11:04 am 
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John James
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Sydney Blue wrote:
OK Agro the 78 side might not have been the best example the point I am trying to make is that the season was over we were playing crap and they turned it around and went on to become one of the greatest ever teams. Who is to say that some of this current crop of players cant do the same thing as they did. I just wish everybody would stop using our draft penalaties and the draft as an excuse as to why we are losing and look at the real isues . We should have been able to channel that aggression that the club and supporters has towards the AFL through to the players and get them playing for the jumper not the pay packets.....


Absolutely agree with this.

The boys are not the most skilled team in the comp., but they are not the no-hopers are lot of posters seem to think. The Wiz Cup final showed what they are capable of, it wasn't a fluke, or just a practice game.

They need to regain faith in themselves and each other, and in the coach, and Denis needs to be more creative.

Get the attitude right, and the wins will follow, starting this week against Melbourne in our last game at "home".

They came out fired up in the second qtr on Friday, aggresively attacking the ball, demanding to get to it first, and they played skilled, fluent football, and beat Geelong in the quarter.

But what happened next? Did their skills just disappear? No, their self -belief did, and so did their desire to do anything to get to the ball first.

Maybe the suspensions have affected their aggression? Maybe at times they are too worried about the consequences of their actions, which shows in lack of confidence.

I support a team and culture that wants to, and is desperate to win, and works as hard as they can to win. I don't care if they don't win a premiership for a 100 years, as long as they show that spirit.

Those individauls in the team that Denis and the coaching staff think do not possess the desperation to win should be dropped.




FIRE ' EM UP DENIS!

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BlueMark
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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2005 12:55 pm 
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Craig Bradley
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Listening to Dennis last night it was pretty obvious that 'losing to win' is the last thing he is thinking of. The man is keen to win as many games as he possibly can. 'The best development is to play in competive sides'

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molsey
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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2005 1:05 pm 
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Geoff Southby
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BlueMark wrote:
Listening to Dennis last night it was pretty obvious that 'losing to win' is the last thing he is thinking of. The man is keen to win as many games as he possibly can. 'The best development is to play in competive sides'


Where was Denis last night?
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SurreyBlue
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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2005 1:17 pm 
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Ken Hunter
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windy wrote:
The boys are not the most skilled team in the comp., but they are not the no-hopers are lot of posters seem to think. The Wiz Cup final showed what they are capable of, it wasn't a fluke, or just a practice game.

They need to regain faith in themselves and each other, and in the coach, and Denis needs to be more creative.

Get the attitude right, and the wins will follow, starting this week against Melbourne in our last game at "home".

They came out fired up in the second qtr on Friday, aggresively attacking the ball, demanding to get to it first, and they played skilled, fluent football, and beat Geelong in the quarter.

But what happened next? Did their skills just disappear? No, their self -belief did, and so did their desire to do anything to get to the ball first.

Maybe the suspensions have affected their aggression? Maybe at times they are too worried about the consequences of their actions, which shows in lack of confidence.

I support a team and culture that wants to, and is desperate to win, and works as hard as they can to win. I don't care if they don't win a premiership for a 100 years, as long as they show that spirit.

Those individauls in the team that Denis and the coaching staff think do not possess the desperation to win should be dropped.


FIRE ' EM UP DENIS!


How true is this.
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AGRO
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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2005 1:17 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko
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windy wrote:
Sydney Blue wrote:
OK Agro the 78 side might not have been the best example the point I am trying to make is that the season was over we were playing crap and they turned it around and went on to become one of the greatest ever teams. Who is to say that some of this current crop of players cant do the same thing as they did. I just wish everybody would stop using our draft penalaties and the draft as an excuse as to why we are losing and look at the real isues . We should have been able to channel that aggression that the club and supporters has towards the AFL through to the players and get them playing for the jumper not the pay packets.....


Absolutely agree with this.

The boys are not the most skilled team in the comp., but they are not the no-hopers are lot of posters seem to think. The Wiz Cup final showed what they are capable of, it wasn't a fluke, or just a practice game.

They need to regain faith in themselves and each other, and in the coach, and Denis needs to be more creative.

Get the attitude right, and the wins will follow, starting this week against Melbourne in our last game at "home".

They came out fired up in the second qtr on Friday, aggresively attacking the ball, demanding to get to it first, and they played skilled, fluent football, and beat Geelong in the quarter.

But what happened next? Did their skills just disappear? No, their self -belief did, and so did their desire to do anything to get to the ball first.

Maybe the suspensions have affected their aggression? Maybe at times they are too worried about the consequences of their actions, which shows in lack of confidence.

I support a team and culture that wants to, and is desperate to win, and works as hard as they can to win. I don't care if they don't win a premiership for a 100 years, as long as they show that spirit.

Those individauls in the team that Denis and the coaching staff think do not possess the desperation to win should be dropped.




FIRE ' EM UP DENIS!



Sorry guys but there are drugs floating around here - if you reckon our current side has players of the quality of our 78/79 side and I will list a few names:

- Doull
- Jesaulenko
- Keogh
- Fitzpatrick
- Johnston
- Buckley
- Maclure

and the rest of them went on to become TRIPLE PREMIERSHIP PLAYERS, the only reason they started off the season so pitifully in 1978 was IAN STEWART the coach was a DEAD SET flower and did not know how to handle the talent he had at his disposal.

Once they started playing to their full potential this team won 36 of their next 41 games (winning the 79 Flag) an 88% win loss ratio.

If you think our current side is anywhere near that then I reckon you must have smoked most of what was in Schapple Corby's boogy board bag. :roll:

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Bluebernz
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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2005 1:30 pm 
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Harry Vallence
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Captain Obvious wrote:
Winning 5 games or less entitles you to a Priority Pick


Captain Obvious I'm disappointed in you mate. Your first error!! To qualify for a PP, you need to win 4.5 games or less. :wink:

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Sumo
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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2005 1:38 pm 
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Horrie Clover

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Bluebernz wrote:
Captain Obvious wrote:
Winning 5 games or less entitles you to a Priority Pick


Captain Obvious I'm disappointed in you mate. Your first error!! To qualify for a PP, you need to win 4.5 games or less. :wink:


Well on recent form we're still a chance. Without tanking!!

Give th kids more game time & more responsibility. Davies, Bentick & Walker should be given a good run on the ball. No more defensive jobs. Bring in Blackwell & Russell. Lets not continue to reward mediocre performance from seasoned players. Anybody whose not performing should get a spell at the Bullants. I don't care who you are or how much your contract is
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ryan2000
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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2005 1:47 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick
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Bluebernz wrote:
Captain Obvious wrote:
Winning 5 games or less entitles you to a Priority Pick


Captain Obvious I'm disappointed in you mate. Your first error!! To qualify for a PP, you need to win 4.5 games or less. :wink:


I thought it was 5 games or less?????

Either way. I'm getting to the point where i just wanna go out there and stop taking shit from other teams. Win/Loose/Draw, i couldn't give a crap to tell you the truth. I just want Kouta to have an impact and for everybody else to go hard at the ball rather than act like pussy's!

And i would also much rather finish 9th on the ladder, with just percentage keeping us out of the 8, and get pick 9 as opposed to finishing last and getting pick 1 & 2.

I can understand why people think that way, i just don't really believe in it.
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molsey
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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2005 1:49 pm 
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Geoff Southby
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I thought it was 5.5 - so both of you are wrong!

Where's Jarusa or Mav when you need them?
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