Kicking to 2 on 1's.......and another thing

Blue Vain · **Joined:** Mon Feb 28, 2005 10:35 am **Posts:** 18035

jimmae wrote:

Blue Vain wrote:

Cazzesman wrote:

You can blame DP till the cows come home for various reasons but when players up the field won't lead directly at the ball carrier then I blame the player not the coach. I sure he doesn't say....Ignore the lead of Josh and kick over his head to the well covered Fev".
Regards Cazzesman

Sorry Cazzesman but telling players how to do something doesnt cut it.

You have to train it, you have to practice it consistently and give the players drills and more drills on how to react in varying situations.
They play on instinct, instinct that is honed on the track.

This is not something I've been saying for a couple of weeks. I've been warning of this since 03!
But surprisingly to some, I'm not here to bag Pagan. I'm just surprised to think that anyone would expect the players to react differently. Everyone can bag the players as much as they want but they are creatures of their environment.
You cant tell them how to function for 4 years and then criticise them for not functioning differently.

I agree but there's just some things you can't simulate efficiently.

Flooding is one.

If we don't have the systems in place already, I relish the day where some of this new money comes into video testing of player decision making, or generating simulations that test it.

All the equipment to do so is within reach. This is why I don't begrudge Pagan and other coaches of other lowly clubs too much if their financial situation is a factor.

Having said that - from what I have seen of training - Pagan doesn't ignore the idea of mindless bombing into the forward line, he strictly encourages at as a last ditch option - that or having a ping at goals. You have to question the mindset of the players when Geelong turned the heat up. They responded in previous weeks, but this time they just fell over.

Wouldn't surprise me in the least if there was a battle of words out on the field. Young minds indeed.

Of course you can simulate flooding. :lol:

We were talking about drills earlier in the week where the forwards need to work against an abundance of defenders.
6 on 7, 6 on 8. It teaches the forwards to create space and the midfielders to choose their options.

http://www.talkingcarlton.com/phpBB2/vi ... c&start=40

But back then you said that these drills were pointless!
Which is it?

These issues have been a problem for years now. They didnt just appear.
Its ignorant of us to expect "smart" players.
We won our share of stoppages yet its our ball use into the forward half that killed us. The damage was done in the first half. After half time the players were confused and lacking confidence. It was groundhog day.

Coaches make players smart by filling them with information and training them. It doesnt just magically happen.

winfieldblue · **Joined:** Sat Dec 30, 2006 7:34 am **Posts:** 991

you can't blame the coach for everything.
players generally played dumb footbal, and we paid the price.
our forwards were leading in the same position..the delivery was dumb, the leading was dumb.
we had no CHF and we paid the price.
cats were rebounding quite easily in numbers.
next week is another challenge.

ryan2000 · **Posted:** Sun Apr 08, 2007 4:00 pm

Blue Vain wrote:

jimmae wrote:

Blue Vain wrote:

Cazzesman wrote:

You can blame DP till the cows come home for various reasons but when players up the field won't lead directly at the ball carrier then I blame the player not the coach. I sure he doesn't say....Ignore the lead of Josh and kick over his head to the well covered Fev".
Regards Cazzesman

Sorry Cazzesman but telling players how to do something doesnt cut it.

You have to train it, you have to practice it consistently and give the players drills and more drills on how to react in varying situations.
They play on instinct, instinct that is honed on the track.

This is not something I've been saying for a couple of weeks. I've been warning of this since 03!
But surprisingly to some, I'm not here to bag Pagan. I'm just surprised to think that anyone would expect the players to react differently. Everyone can bag the players as much as they want but they are creatures of their environment.
You cant tell them how to function for 4 years and then criticise them for not functioning differently.

I agree but there's just some things you can't simulate efficiently.

Flooding is one.

If we don't have the systems in place already, I relish the day where some of this new money comes into video testing of player decision making, or generating simulations that test it.

All the equipment to do so is within reach. This is why I don't begrudge Pagan and other coaches of other lowly clubs too much if their financial situation is a factor.

Having said that - from what I have seen of training - Pagan doesn't ignore the idea of mindless bombing into the forward line, he strictly encourages at as a last ditch option - that or having a ping at goals. You have to question the mindset of the players when Geelong turned the heat up. They responded in previous weeks, but this time they just fell over.

Wouldn't surprise me in the least if there was a battle of words out on the field. Young minds indeed.

Of course you can simulate flooding. :lol:

We were talking about drills earlier in the week where the forwards need to work against an abundance of defenders.
6 on 7, 6 on 8. It teaches the forwards to create space and the midfielders to choose their options.

http://www.talkingcarlton.com/phpBB2/vi ... c&start=40

But back then you said that these drills were pointless!
Which is it?

These issues have been a problem for years now. They didnt just appear.
Its ignorant of us to expect "smart" players.
We won our share of stoppages yet its our ball use into the forward half that killed us. The damage was done in the first half. After half time the players were confused and lacking confidence. It was groundhog day.

Coaches make players smart by filling them with information and training them. It doesnt just magically happen.

Game, Set & Match BV! Couldn't have said it better myself! I'm with you 100%.

Blue Vain · **Joined:** Mon Feb 28, 2005 10:35 am **Posts:** 18035

winfieldblue wrote:

you can't blame the coach for everything.

Who's blaming the coach for everything?
I'm not about laying blame or pointing fingers. I just want our problems identified and addressed.
Or would you rather we close our eyes and hope for the best?

jimmae · **Posted:** Sun Apr 08, 2007 4:15 pm

If there was a sure fire anti-flooding drill, you wouldn't be hearing boo out of me.

It's pretty simple BV: I'd like us to have simulation and drills at training that are effective in demonstrating how to counteract flooding, but I don't think it's something that you can simulate without something nearing an intra-club match.

That is to say: what good is it without some level of spontenaity and creativity?

So you spend some of the budget on suitable equipment to run video/computer simulations. The AIS do it. Some clubs do it. Why not us?

Blue Vain · **Joined:** Mon Feb 28, 2005 10:35 am **Posts:** 18035

Come off it Jim, there's plenty of drills that simulate most situations on a football field.
Go and watch some of the TAC clubs train and some of the drills they implement.
Brett Ratten ran a couple during the pre season where the backline has 2 extra players. The midfielders are pitted against each other and throw ins and ball ups are conducted on the wing etc.
The team that wins the clearance runs the ball with pressure from the opposition and must kick into a flooded forward line.
It teaches the players in the forward line to find space and teaches the midfielders to choose correct options under pressure.
Barry Mitchell does quite a bit of this drill.

Pagan had little involvement during pre season until the first match simulation drill.
Everytime one of the players got the ball and looked for an option he yelled "kick it! Kick it!" :lol:

I was having a good chuckle. The assistants had spent 2 months teaching the players to be wise with their ball use and to spot up options and Denis is screaming at them to bomb it long! :lol:

If you want to spend the budget, spend it on a psychologists because we have the most confused playing group in the AFL.

chubbyruss · **Joined:** Tue Sep 05, 2006 8:59 am **Posts:** 8631

Absolutely spot on BV. That is a typical example of why we have and still will endure the pain

winfieldblue · **Joined:** Sat Dec 30, 2006 7:34 am **Posts:** 991

Blue Vain wrote:

winfieldblue wrote:

you can't blame the coach for everything.

Who's blaming the coach for everything?
I'm not about laying blame or pointing fingers. I just want our problems identified and addressed.
Or would you rather we close our eyes and hope for the best?

we have the cattle to defeat the flood, but they're not ready yet.
the only way to defeat the flood is to run hard into spaces around the 50 meter arc chipping the ball around, being patient, the opportunity will presents itself after a plaethora of short foot passes for the final pass into the forward 50 meter and thus shot on goal. sydney does it best in that regard, they are so flower well drilled and patient.
it's the only way.
we are still learning contested football because the team is so young.
we are not up to that stage of implementing tactics to defeat floods. we possibly need another two or three players with exceptional foot skills to get involved in this strategy. but firstly we must learn to bottle up games when the opposition has the momentum.
to say we have a long way to go is an under statement in implementing plan b strategies.

Blue Vain · **Joined:** Mon Feb 28, 2005 10:35 am **Posts:** 18035

winfieldblue wrote:

we are still learning contested football because the team is so young.
we are not up to that stage of implementing tactics to defeat floods.

We cant implement tactics so we expect young inexperienced bodies to play a contested gamestyle.

That is what you're saying, isnt it?

BTW, at what stage do we actually "implement tactics"?

winfieldblue · **Joined:** Sat Dec 30, 2006 7:34 am **Posts:** 991

whats with being pendantic?
no need to be a smart arse.
obviously we can play contested football. it has been proven.
we can play fast paced football and move the ball very quickly.
we do that well. and that's what will win us games. geelong is a machine..
the bulldogs defeated them, bulldogs were lucky that brad johnson had a day out...daniel cross, gilbee, griffen have great foot passing skills on the run.
betts, kennedy, fisher, waite, ohailpin, thornton, russell, murphy, gibbs, walker, simpson, bentick, carrazzo.. are still learning their trade.

how long will it take?

untill thse blokes get 50+ games under their belts... 2+ years away.

Blue Vain · **Joined:** Mon Feb 28, 2005 10:35 am **Posts:** 18035

I apologise. I thought you were taking the piss but upon rereading your post, I see you actually believe this stuff.

Lets agree to disagree, once again.

Elwood Blues1 · **Joined:** Mon Feb 28, 2005 9:10 am **Posts:** 4827

Denis was outcoached and hasnt learned anything from playing Geelong over several years.....same game plan, same result.
We lined up in a predictable fashion and fed Fev the same rubbish and got the same result....Geelong players took us on and broke tackles the same as they have been doing for the past 3-4 years and we couldnt do anything about it because after kicking it to Fev fails and Stevens is tagged out of the game that's where the planning ends...

Milburn, Bartel, Scarlett, Corey, Chapman...same players doing the business for Geelong vs us everytime...Different players playing the same way for us.I dont mind losing if we are not good enough but losing the same way by the same amount(lots)......thats the coach,MC not having the answers........

Hornet · **Joined:** Sat May 21, 2005 5:15 pm **Posts:** 7406

Elwood Blues1 wrote:

Denis was outcoached and hasnt learned anything from playing Geelong over several years.....same game plan, same result.
We lined up in a predictable fashion and fed Fev the same rubbish and got the same result....Geelong players took us on and broke tackles the same as they have been doing for the past 3-4 years and we couldnt do anything about it because after kicking it to Fev fails and Stevens is tagged out of the game that's where the planning ends...

Milburn, Bartel, Scarlett, Corey, Chapman...same players doing the business for Geelong vs us everytime...Different players playing the same way for us.I dont mind losing if we are not good enough but losing the same way by the same amount(lots)......thats the coach,MC not having the answers........

What shiits me the most is our apparent lack of a plan B. When plan A works we look good and everything is roses but when it's successfully counteracted by the opposition we lose, and we lose by lots.

This week we play the bummers who's coach loves to drop an extra player or two down back. Failing to prepare for this will mean another spanking . . . and that would hurt a hellofalot more.

Rhys26 · **Joined:** Thu Mar 03, 2005 10:12 am **Posts:** 1730

Elwood Blues1 wrote:

Denis was outcoached and hasnt learned anything from playing Geelong over several years.....same game plan, same result.
We lined up in a predictable fashion and fed Fev the same rubbish and got the same result....Geelong players took us on and broke tackles the same as they have been doing for the past 3-4 years and we couldnt do anything about it because after kicking it to Fev fails and Stevens is tagged out of the game that's where the planning ends...

Milburn, Bartel, Scarlett, Corey, Chapman...same players doing the business for Geelong vs us everytime...Different players playing the same way for us.I dont mind losing if we are not good enough but losing the same way by the same amount(lots)......thats the coach,MC not having the answers........

that is so true.
I wish pagan would just go away...he is hurting the club

Elwood Blues1 · **Joined:** Mon Feb 28, 2005 9:10 am **Posts:** 4827

For example I wouldnt have put Fev out on the half forward flank on the boundary and taken the heat with him..if Geelong want to play 2-3 players on or in front of him they can all sit on the boundary with fev and watch the play as we go down the corridor to other players.

re Stevens.....we saw Ling take Stevens to the goalsquare and being a ex U18 FF for the Falcons he was confortable with that and had the size and know how to outmark Nick or win the free kick....not Nicks fault.....he doesnt belong playing FB on the last line....should never have happened.

I would have played Stevens out of our goalsquare and dragged Ling to FB and had Stevens lead up the ground...seen Choco Williams do that with Stevens for Port......Denis doesnt have the same imagination..

jimmae · **Posted:** Sun Apr 08, 2007 7:49 pm

Blue Vain wrote:

Come off it Jim, there's plenty of drills that simulate most situations on a football field.
Go and watch some of the TAC clubs train and some of the drills they implement.
Brett Ratten ran a couple during the pre season where the backline has 2 extra players. The midfielders are pitted against each other and throw ins and ball ups are conducted on the wing etc.
The team that wins the clearance runs the ball with pressure from the opposition and must kick into a flooded forward line.
It teaches the players in the forward line to find space and teaches the midfielders to choose correct options under pressure.
Barry Mitchell does quite a bit of this drill.

Pagan had little involvement during pre season until the first match simulation drill.
Everytime one of the players got the ball and looked for an option he yelled "kick it! Kick it!" :lol:

I was having a good chuckle. The assistants had spent 2 months teaching the players to be wise with their ball use and to spot up options and Denis is screaming at them to bomb it long! :lol:

If you want to spend the budget, spend it on a psychologists because we have the most confused playing group in the AFL.

What is it about the phrase "effective drill" that doesn't register?

The best way to teach flooding on the turf at training is to run a either a full field match simulation or close to (say from half-back). Anything else is contrived and ultimately useless. The play has to build, the forwards, defenders & midfielders need time and space to create an opportunity for themselves. I'd love it if we had some of those Adelaide-style headsets, then we could do that all session long and the boys could score some feedback as they jog back to position to start again. The coaching staff could even observe things from the stands to get a better view of the play unfolding.

As for your opinion on Pagan screaming instructions that seemingly fly in the face of the previous work in the pre-season, you have your opinion, I have mine.

Blue Vain · **Joined:** Mon Feb 28, 2005 10:35 am **Posts:** 18035

jimmae wrote:

[What is it about the phrase "effective drill" that doesn't register?

Actually most of your nonsense doesnt register with me Jim.

I've seen some of the TAC coaches, Chris Bond, Barry Mitchell, Brett Ratten and Michael Broadbridge use these drills Jim..
Should we contact them and let them know that their drills are'nt effective?

I'm sure your thoughts will carry a lot of weight. :wink:

winfieldblue · **Joined:** Sat Dec 30, 2006 7:34 am **Posts:** 991

Hornet wrote:

What shiits me the most is our apparent lack of a plan B. When plan A works we look good and everything is roses but when it's successfully counteracted by the opposition we lose, and we lose by lots.

This week we play the bummers who's coach loves to drop an extra player or two down back. Failing to prepare for this will mean another spanking . . . and that would hurt a hellofalot more.

yes we are going to get spanked alot this year.
it wont be out of poor effort or caching.
plan a.. move ball quickly and apply forward pressure on opposition defence.
cats were ready for it, running with numbers from the backline.
we persisted with this plan, but the players were actually quite dumb.
ratts at quater time said it loud and clear... be patient and look for other targets if fev is covered..players didnt respond to instructions.
geelong were always going to flood the forward line whether half forward or full forward they were ready for us.
i think plan a is worth persisting with...not all clubs has the defensive cattle that geelong has..they can all kick 40m+ with precision...scarlett, hunt, joel corey, corey enright, bartel, chapman, milburn, ling et al.
side by side to our boys bar scotland & fev they are all in their mid 20's and they are tanks. absolute machines.

Blue Vain · **Joined:** Mon Feb 28, 2005 10:35 am **Posts:** 18035

Gee your writing style is like chalk and cheese compared to around election time Winnie.
Its like 2 totally different people.

winfieldblue · **Joined:** Sat Dec 30, 2006 7:34 am **Posts:** 991

Blue Vain wrote:

Gee your writing style is like chalk and cheese compared to around election time Winnie.
Its like 2 totally different people.

good to see you play the ball as always. :roll:

Kicking to 2 on 1's.......and another thing

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