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PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2005 4:45 pm 
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Ken Hunter
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camelboy wrote:
I agree with what you are saying, but the fact still remains we have not played as a disciplined team, or with the skill we displayed for the most part of the Wizzer Cup campaign in the season proper. Forget the trophy, we hit targets, we manned up, we created space and we tackled ferociously.


Exactly Camel. If the team played the same as the preseason cup and where losing, than I would not have a problem with where we are at, but there not and there lies the problem.


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PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2005 4:47 pm 
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Rod Ashman

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I'll mention it until I go blue in the face if I have to but the performance against West Coast in the Wizard Cup was at times sensational and it's performances like that which tell me to keep the faith and that we're not as bad a side as we've indicated so far this season..

The only red herring is that West Coast didn't try and let us win the cup...what a load of rubbish that is.

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PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2005 4:49 pm 
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Craig Bradley
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on-board guys

refuse to believe that the WC was a fluke.

That is how we can play - we certainly arent playing like that at the moment, but when we play the way we can, this current crop of "shit trucks" are pretty handy.

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PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2005 4:49 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick
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SurreyBlue wrote:
camelboy wrote:
I agree with what you are saying, but the fact still remains we have not played as a disciplined team, or with the skill we displayed for the most part of the Wizzer Cup campaign in the season proper. Forget the trophy, we hit targets, we manned up, we created space and we tackled ferociously.


Exactly Camel. If the team played the same as the preseason cup and where losing, than I would not have a problem with where we are at, but there not and there lies the problem.


Yep, i'm the same.

I don't expect us to win week in week out, but i believe we have a side that is decent enough to be competitive!

The footy we played in the PS was the best i've seen from Carlton since perhaps 2000??? (2001 we were good, but rusty around the edges!)

Hell, i can remember seeing Fevola hit a running lappin on the chest from about 40mtrs! Amazing!
Each 4 of those games we play good, hard, traditional fast & free flowing football.


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PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2005 4:53 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko
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I reckon we were stuffed from Round 1 - the losses of Thornton and Livingston (early in that game) stuffed us up structurally, and from that time on the other teams treated us a bit like the kid in the fairy story about "The Emporer's New Clothes". They all realised we were not that good and really had nothing to fear.

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PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2005 4:56 pm 
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Ken Hunter
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Blues2005 wrote:
I'll mention it until I go blue in the face.


Would be careful around here mate, you'll end up in hospital trying to get some points across. :lol:


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PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2005 5:24 pm 
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Harry Vallence
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camelboy wrote:
Bluebernz wrote:
SurreyBlue wrote:
Effes wrote:
BTW, can some people maybe consider that we're just not good enough to win the games in the first place!


This is where your wrong. You don't win a premiership in the preseason competition by being pathetic or this bad. We did beat a full strength WestCoast. :wink: Cover it up how you like, fact is we played and beat them and they are undefeated.


Forget about the Wizz Cup. Did you not hear both Sticks and Diesel on the radio say that we had absolutely no right to win that comp? That the victory made us look a lot better than we were. That they were surprised how our opposition during the WC matches let us pretty much do whatever we wanted. Did you read the Collo article pretty much saying exactly the same thing last week?

This is Collo and Sticks talking. Don't take my word for it, take theirs. If there's anybody that knows the reality of our list it is these two blokes.

Wizz Cup victory = red herring


I agree with what you are saying, but the fact still remains we have not played as a disciplined team, or with the skill we displayed for the most part of the Wizzer Cup campaign in the season proper. Forget the trophy, we hit targets, we manned up, we created space and we tackled ferociously.


I agree with you to some extent here Camel. Yes, we are not as bad as we've looked over the past 3 weeks- I truly believe that we are capable of playing a lot better... for the same reasons that you mentioned above.

But we have to put the Wiz Cup victory in some context as well. IIRC, both Sticks and Diesel said that the opposition were using different tactics against us in the WC compared to the season proper. Here's one example they gave: They couldn't believe how the opposition allowed both Fev and Whits to have so much space in our F50 during the WC (NB: their words not mine!!).. so what happens?... Whits and Fev have an absolute goal-feast!! Come the season proper they block up our forward line and what happens? Well we get it into F50 enough but have problems kicking goals.

When the real stuff started and opposing coaches started employing true match tactics we started to struggle - hence why I'm saying not to read too much into the pre-season comp. I got fooled as well, thinking we would make the 8, after those performances.

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PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2005 5:36 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko
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Side note: This thread is f*cking awesome. Great back and forth, without getting nasty. Love it, well done all (especially me).

Blues2005 wrote:
I'll mention it until I go blue in the face if I have to but the performance against West Coast in the Wizard Cup was at times sensational and it's performances like that which tell me to keep the faith and that we're not as bad a side as we've indicated so far this season..

The only red herring is that West Coast didn't try and let us win the cup...what a load of rubbish that is.


Spot on Brother. We're playing shite at the minute, but I'll be stuffed if that's a reason to throw away all our self-respect.

And Prez I'm with ya all the way - If I ever caught wind of Carlton 'tanking' I'd got the Tiger supporter option too (tear up the membership).

Maybe you and I could go watch a game of LaCrosse?

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PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2005 5:51 pm 
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Robert Walls

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phoenix johnson wrote:
I struggle to understand why some people don't want to have the chance of picking up the next Judd or Riewoldt.

Have a look at Hawthorn.
They get a few good, young, talented kids into their side and all of a sudden they are winning games and playing with confidence.
Who would have thought they would be ahead of us this year? I didn't.


Do you think it might be confidence we're currently lacking more than talent?

From what I hear this year's draft is unlikely to have a Judd or Riewoldt so it all may be for nothing.


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PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2005 6:01 pm 
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Robert Walls

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TruBlueBrad wrote:
Can someone show me Geelong's top draft pick's?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but they've built their list on the back of clever slections, not one of which were in the top 5 (could be wrong on that, but certainly it would only be 1-2 in the top 5), and father-son selections.

The majority of their picks have been outside the Top 10 and they've managed to become a force without bottoming out and playing for draft picks.


Haven't had a pick higher than 7.


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PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2005 7:23 pm 
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Garry Crane

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 3:27 pm
Posts: 227
camelboy wrote:
Bluebernz wrote:
SurreyBlue wrote:
Effes wrote:
BTW, can some people maybe consider that we're just not good enough to win the games in the first place!


This is where your wrong. You don't win a premiership in the preseason competition by being pathetic or this bad. We did beat a full strength WestCoast. :wink: Cover it up how you like, fact is we played and beat them and they are undefeated.


Forget about the Wizz Cup. Did you not hear both Sticks and Diesel on the radio say that we had absolutely no right to win that comp? That the victory made us look a lot better than we were. That they were surprised how our opposition during the WC matches let us pretty much do whatever we wanted. Did you read the Collo article pretty much saying exactly the same thing last week?

This is Collo and Sticks talking. Don't take my word for it, take theirs. If there's anybody that knows the reality of our list it is these two blokes.

Wizz Cup victory = red herring


I agree with what you are saying, but the fact still remains we have not played as a disciplined team, or with the skill we displayed for the most part of the Wizzer Cup campaign in the season proper. Forget the trophy, we hit targets, we manned up, we created space and we tackled ferociously.


Absolutely.

Football is 80% above the shoulders and 20% playing ability. Pointing fingers, recommending flawed tactics that can utterly destroy the club is a tad tiring to read over and over and over.


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PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2005 11:10 pm 
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Bert Deacon
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Sumo wrote:
Current system rewards mediocrity, & let's face it, we are mediocre. Finish the year with 4.5 wins & reap the rewards I say. We've won a spoon now, so whats another one?

Thing that concerns me is what is the value in playing kids (Walker, Blackwell, Bentick etc) & getting pumped each week. How does this improve our list? 1AW has the makings of being a real class act, but in this current style of game plan under the current structure, I've grave concerns for his development. On the other hand, why should established players keep getting rewarded for sub standard performances? Whats the answer, I don't know.

Another huge concern of mine is that I looked at our team on Friday night, & for the life of me, couldn't see anybody out there who warrants being our next captain


Several I would have said. Maybe not on Friday nights performance but Jarrad Waite, Nick Stevens or perhaps even Brett Thornton. I actually think long term Jarrad Waite will make a fine captain for this club.

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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2005 1:45 pm 
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Harry Vallence
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Deano Supremo wrote:
Side note: This thread is f*cking awesome. Great back and forth, without getting nasty. Love it, well done all (especially me).


Don't know about that Deano. BlueBird got really nasty when Agro mentioned ABBA. Almost deserving of a warning if you ask me! :P

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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2005 2:33 pm 
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Melbourne Supporter

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Carlton has been caught in a difficult place with the unfair draft penalties coming at a terrible time. Without penalties you would have Goddard, Wells and McLean and things would be looking a lot brighter.

You can get early picks by finishing low or trading good players. You have been stuck with massive contracts on your good players making them untradable. Hopefully some of these contracts are coming to an end. Even if they aren't I think you need to bite the bullet and pay some salary McKernan-style.

The problem is, the players with any value at all are getting older and their value is eroding fast. When you are winning you can off-load hacks at exhorbitant prces -- look at pick 6 for Danny Jacobs. Unfortunately with miserable results your average players appear valueless (and party time is over for Sheeds as well here).

IMO you need to trade Campo, Lappin and Lance at the end of this year and hope to nett 3 late first rounders -- if you think any of these three will pull top 5 picks -- dream on.

Play a side with a view to the future, make sure your promising youth is protected by the journeymen you picked up when Pagan arrived and did the clean-out. As posters here have said, the bad results will take care of themselves. Without the three trades on your list 2006 will be tough too and should also yield some early picks.

Outside of Kouta (and minus the 3 trades) Stevens and Fevola are your oldest class players and they have 5-6 years left which is long enough to make them valuable when your 2005-6 picks start to deliver.

PS. I think it is highly likely that you will defeat my team MFC this week, but that does not change my view about where you are at and what you need to do.


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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2005 2:42 pm 
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Robert Walls
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Bluebernz wrote:
Deano Supremo wrote:
Side note: This thread is f*cking awesome. Great back and forth, without getting nasty. Love it, well done all (especially me).


Don't know about that Deano. BlueBird got really nasty when Agro mentioned ABBA. Almost deserving of a warning if you ask me! :P


...don't you start BB. :wink:

As for the debate at hand I am utterly conflicted. Like many have said I hate the thought of not minding losing games because of potential jewels in the draft. I’m sure Denis would never countenance going in to a game not committed and how would that kind of attitude influence our young players’ development? BUT the draft penalties have killed us and after overachieving last year we are back behind the other teams because of our limited access to the draft.

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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2005 3:38 pm 
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Horrie Clover

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old55 wrote:
IMO you need to trade Campo, Lappin and Lance at the end of this year and hope to nett 3 late first rounders -- if you think any of these three will pull top 5 picks -- dream on.


Said before that I'd be willing to trade campo for not much at all. Top 5 blah, I'd accept top 105 as long as it doesn't continue to cost the club financially (refer figure$: Camporeale thread which has been interesting reading).


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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2005 3:48 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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Bluebernz wrote:
I agree with you to some extent here Camel. Yes, we are not as bad as we've looked over the past 3 weeks- I truly believe that we are capable of playing a lot better... for the same reasons that you mentioned above.

But we have to put the Wiz Cup victory in some context as well. IIRC, both Sticks and Diesel said that the opposition were using different tactics against us in the WC compared to the season proper. Here's one example they gave: They couldn't believe how the opposition allowed both Fev and Whits to have so much space in our F50 during the WC (NB: their words not mine!!).. so what happens?... Whits and Fev have an absolute goal-feast!! Come the season proper they block up our forward line and what happens? Well we get it into F50 enough but have problems kicking goals.

When the real stuff started and opposing coaches started employing true match tactics we started to struggle - hence why I'm saying not to read too much into the pre-season comp. I got fooled as well, thinking we would make the 8, after those performances.


Yeah I've got no problem that we maybe got an "easy ride" in the Wizzer. Either way we still played better, and most importantly we played with greater skill and dexterity. Did we really get that much latitude shown by our opponents, or have the players just started believing the hype? In the Wizzer Campo was sensational off HBF, our discipline at playing through the corridor was likewise. Sure, the real stuff lifts the intensity a fair notch, but the intensity of the last quarter in the Wizzer Cup was pretty fierce too. Why our players have not been able to reach such heights again, or to deal even a little bit with the extra pressures of home and away matches has me stumped to be honest.

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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2005 3:54 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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old55 wrote:
Carlton has been caught in a difficult place with the unfair draft penalties coming at a terrible time. Without penalties you would have Goddard, Wells and McLean and things would be looking a lot brighter.

You can get early picks by finishing low or trading good players. You have been stuck with massive contracts on your good players making them untradable. Hopefully some of these contracts are coming to an end. Even if they aren't I think you need to bite the bullet and pay some salary McKernan-style.

The problem is, the players with any value at all are getting older and their value is eroding fast. When you are winning you can off-load hacks at exhorbitant prces -- look at pick 6 for Danny Jacobs. Unfortunately with miserable results your average players appear valueless (and party time is over for Sheeds as well here).

IMO you need to trade Campo, Lappin and Lance at the end of this year and hope to nett 3 late first rounders -- if you think any of these three will pull top 5 picks -- dream on.

Play a side with a view to the future, make sure your promising youth is protected by the journeymen you picked up when Pagan arrived and did the clean-out. As posters here have said, the bad results will take care of themselves. Without the three trades on your list 2006 will be tough too and should also yield some early picks.

Outside of Kouta (and minus the 3 trades) Stevens and Fevola are your oldest class players and they have 5-6 years left which is long enough to make them valuable when your 2005-6 picks start to deliver.

PS. I think it is highly likely that you will defeat my team MFC this week, but that does not change my view about where you are at and what you need to do.


Campo and Lance ... maybe. Even though I think they cop it a bit unfairly on here I can see the point you are making old55 (welcome to TC by the way). I'm pretty sure we'd get sweet FA for Campo in any case. Lance *might* attract some bait, but probably not enough to hook Pagan's interest.

Lappin should stay. I'd be bitterly disapointed if he was traded away, regardless of the return. At a time when the club is desperate for examples of how to play the game Skinny is one of the few "senior" players to show pretty much every week what it takes to succeed at AFL level. He may not have the physical strength, but his tenacity makes up for that and he is generally always in our better players weekn in week out. Carlton is entering an unfamiliar phase, one that we need to accept, we have only two premiership players on our list and it could well be none in 2006, and quite possibly undeniable by 2007. That being the case having a 200 game, 150+ at Carlton, player like Matthew Lappin on our list is a must if we're to eschew anything meaningful out of our great past. We must protect our club heroes, and while Lappin has not tasted September success he deserves every right, IMO, to be held up there with some of the club's shining lights.

Skinny stays.

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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2005 3:59 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick

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Doesnt have me stumped...the wizzer cup is TV footy and there is trying and really trying...we really tried to win it for the dough but some of the other clubs didnt look interested. When we were successful we didnt win many practice games or wizzer cup games back in the old days it was just the bottom teams trying to get members etc who could really be bothered....nothing has changed except we are now one of the desperados trying to get the dough.......


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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2005 4:37 pm 
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Robert Walls

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Lappin will be 30 when season 2006 starts. So will Campo. Can't see other clubs giving up much for a 30 year old.


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