So what do you reckon, Synners?

If Pagan got the chop at the end of the year, would Ratts be given the job or would they source out Vossy and sign him up?

I agree re: the point about if signed Voss as coach, we'd probably lose Ratten.

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Writer for SuperCoach Paige www.scpaige.com.au
Twitter - @johnfeeney24

I don't know why we're even discussing this. Voss has no experience at coaching at AFL level, or any other level for that matter, and its obvious that Robbo is just creating his own news just so he can write an article and talk about something while he's on SEN. The only reason he choose Pagan was because Pagan has been recently on shaky ground and he knows that we now have the dollars to sack him and buy Voss if we really wanted to. For him the only other coach to realistically pick as a target for the article is Sheedy. We all know that'd never happen.

Voss has his supporters.
What he brings is a guy who will demand the respect of every player on our list and outside the list.
A guy who is a 3 time premiership captain.
Brownlow Meddalist.
A guy who every kid in Australia would lay their life down for.(After Denis thats going to be a good get for us).. and would want to play for...
A guy who has played under a great coach and is cutting his teeth away from the game...
A guy that will bring back some majesty...

Youll find come the time ... he will be a contender.

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Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

You sure we're not talking about Clive Waterhouse here?

_________________
Writer for SuperCoach Paige www.scpaige.com.au
Twitter - @johnfeeney24

Great players rarely become great coaches. Just because Voss was a champion footballer on the field doesn't give him the qualifications to be a premiership coach.

OK .... lets put your theory to the test Andain

Premiership coaches in the last 50-odd years

2006 - John Worsfold
2005 - Paul Roos
2004 - Mark Williams
2001/2/3 - Leigh Matthews
2000 - Kevin Sheedy
1999 - Denis Pagan
1998/7 - Malcolm Blight
1996 - Denis Pagan
1995 - David Parkin
1994 - Mick Malthouse
1993 - Kevin Sheedy
1992 - Mick Malthouse
1991 - Alan Joyce
1990 - Leigh Matthews
1988/89 - Alan Joyce / Allan Jeans
1987 - Robert Walls
1986 - Allan Jeans
1984/5 - Kevin Sheedy
1983 - Allan Jeans
1981/2 - David Parkin
1980 - Tony Jewell
1979 - Alex Jesaulenko
1978 - David Parkin
1977 - Ron Barassi
1976 - John Kennedy
1975 - Ron Barassi
1973/4 - Tom Haffey
1972 - John Nicholls
1971 - John Kennedy
1970 - Ron Barassi
1969 - Tom Haffey
1968 - Ron Barassi
1967 - Tom Haffey
1966 - John Kennedy
1965 - John Coleman
1964 - Norm Smith
1963 - Bob Davis
1962 - John Coleman
1961 - John Kennedy
1959/60 - Norm Smith

Now try and tell me that being a great player doesn't make you a great coach.

I agree that a great player should learn the ropes before taking up a senior coaching position.

But to say that great players 'rarely' become great coaches is rubbish.

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^^^

Don't worry Essendon* ....... We still hate your guts

^^^

Your thinking is a touch flawed there 95...

What you need to do is make a list of all the great players who NEVER became premiership coaches. Because the argument is more that just because someone was a great player, doesn't mean they will become a great coach.

Think Watson, Bartlett, Schimmelbusch, Knights...and a hundred others...

(although Andain may have gone a bit overboard saying 'rarely'.)

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Mens sana in corpore sano.

Bring back the laurel wreath logo!!!

This really shows how easy a gig it is to work in the footy media.

Knobbo can suggest its a great idea to replace Pagan with Voss essentially because he was a great captain and is a good special commentator. Fact is he has no coaching experience or even any experience as an assistant, a serious deficiency on a prospective coaches resume. This line says it all Based on what has Voss proven man management skills? I am sure Voss has a lot of ?'s against skills required for a coach.

If we did get Voss as coach and he fell flat on his face we all know Knobbo would be one of the first to jump on us for being dildos for signing up an untried coach. Of course, if he's right he will make sure everyone knows about it. Either way he can't lose.

Knobbo can write articles like this and he has no accountability if he's proven wrong. In the real world, we have to consider the possibility Voss will be another Watson.

1. Voss was being spoken of before he joined the media so it has not much to do with his commentary.
2. It seems clear the story came from Carlton to Robbo, not from Robbo himself.
2. Pagan staying or going will have more to do with his relationship with the players than win/loss.
3. Ratten would have been the logical replacement if Pagan goes end of year EXCEPT that Pratt is now in charge & he won't take him on if there's doubt.
4. Voss is being talked about in similar tones to Worsfold before he headed down the coaching path & I believe he will choose to go the assistant route like Roos, Worsfold as distinct from the Watson route.

Ideal scenario, IMO, is for Pagan to reinvent himself sufficiently to get all the players on board (unlikely, I know...). He then stays next year to see out his contract with Voss brought in as an assistant and 2008 used to evaluate how Voss would go Vs Ratten plus whoever else may prove their worth at other clubs.

However, this will only work if Pagan can get the support of the players.
Otherwise, our hand may be forced at the end of this year which will mean a decision based more on gut than evaluation. Having said that, Pratt's gut has a pretty good track record...

OK .... lets put your theory to the test Andain

Premiership coaches in the last 50-odd years

2006 - John Worsfold
2005 - Paul Roos

2001/2/3 - Leigh Matthews
2000 - Kevin Sheedy

1998/7 - Malcolm Blight

1995 - David Parkin

1993 - Kevin Sheedy

1990 - Leigh Matthews

1987 - Robert Walls

1984/5 - Kevin Sheedy

1981/2 - David Parkin

1979 - Alex Jesaulenko
1978 - David Parkin
1977 - Ron Barassi

1975 - Ron Barassi

1972 - John Nicholls
1971 - John Kennedy
1970 - Ron Barassi

1968 - Ron Barassi

1965 - John Coleman

1963 - Bob Davis
1962 - John Coleman

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Oompa loompa doompety dee
If you are wise you'll listen to me

So....I'm assuming the only difference between this list and the one that was posted 12 hours ago is your opinion of the Coaches as players?

IMO....only Matthews-Blight-Jezza-Barassi-Nicholls and Coleman were "GREATS".

Then; you could argue that Jezza and Nicholls "inherited" great sides.....I'm not so well versed in the ability of the other sides when they were first Coached by the other Coaches.

It's all so hypothetical with so many variants applying to each scenario.

_________________
No ones listening till you make a mistake.

Lets start at 1980 shall we? Earlier than that and coaches barely got paid. Footy was hardly professional. If you want to argue otherwise Alex Jesaulenko was captain coach in 1979 (which just screams amature) and we all know how good of a coach he was given his efforts as coach in the early 90s.

2006 - John Worsfold: Excellent player, but I wouldn't call him a great of the AFL. West Coast sure but not the AFL.
2005 - Paul Roos: Great player
2004 - Mark Williams: Not a great
2001/2/3 - Leigh Matthews: Great Player
2000 - Kevin Sheedy: Not a great
1999 - Denis Pagan: Not a great
1998/7 - Malcolm Blight: Great Player
1996 - Denis Pagan: Not a great
1995 - David Parkin: Not a great
1994 - Mick Malthouse: Not a great
1993 - Kevin Sheedy: Not a great
1992 - Mick Malthouse: Not a great
1991 - Alan Joyce: Not a great
1990 - Leigh Matthews: Great player
1988/89 - Alan Joyce / Allan Jeans: Not a great (both)
1987 - Robert Walls: Good player
1986 - Allan Jeans: Not a great
1984/5 - Kevin Sheedy: Not a great
1983 - Allan Jeans: Not a great
1981/2 - David Parkin: Not a great
1980 - Tony Jewell: Not a great

Coaches who were great players in bold.

Out of the last 26 premiership only 7 of those premiership were won by a coach who was a champion player (four of which were won by the one great and another two won by Blight)... with two more arguable.

So essentially they're has only been three premiership winning coaches over the last 26 years who could be considered a great. Back in your box mate.

Did you ever see Robert Walls play football Andain?

_________________
“When a clown moves into a palace, he doesn't become a king. The palace turns into a circus.”
Turkish Proverb

*cough*

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cu6rD_f8S9w

i'm a minimilist.

_________________
Oompa loompa doompety dee
If you are wise you'll listen to me

Why are we wasting 3 pages of posts on an article written by Mark Robinson?

Robinson could have hit Edit, Replace in his word doco and removed Pagan and placed anyone of Laidley, Sheedy, Daniher, Connolly, Malthouse, Matthews.............................................

He is being a schmuck and is having a go at our expense.

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“It is a state of mind, a system of belief, a way of seeing the world, a deep faith that, because you are Carlton, you belong to something great.” - Mike Fitzpatrick articulating what Out of the Blue means.

I did say it was arguable.

I thought it was aboiut the back door.

_________________
Oompa loompa doompety dee
If you are wise you'll listen to me

This is supposed to be the new Carlton. If we get a new coach we should go through a process that involves assessing all applicants and then make a judgement on the best available. This is what other clubs do, but we have never done that. Will Vossy be a great coach? Who knows, he has never coached. We need someone with great tactical nous. Is that Voss? No idea. Is is Ratts? possibly, but it could be Longmire, Bond etc. When the time comes, we must search and interview widely and get it right. Forget about lists of premiership coaches and how good a player they were - Who was the last successful coach who had not been an assistant prior to his appointment?

PS Wallsy was a great player. A gun CHF who was vc of premiership sides when barely 20, BOG in a GF at CHF, best Carlton player in 73 GF, capable of kicking 6 in a quarter (Glenferrie Oval can't remember when,) and 10 in a game. Was he a great coach? He was a great innovator, fantastic with Fitzroy, good with Carlton for two years and then bad, awful at Richmond, good at the Lions. Winning a flag doesn't necessarily make you a great coach ie Tony Jewell; Jezza; Allan Joyce. I'd rate a few coaches who haven't won flags ahead of a few that have.

what gerry said re Wallsy - a great of the game

here's a question - who was the last coach to be successful without working as an assistant somewhere first?