There's a lot of hurt out there in Carlton land, whether because we have realised that we're in Year 4 of our continued pain, or whether because the Wizzer raised our expectations. Either way, look back to 2003 and think about what you saw happening over 2004/2007 - it wasn't pretty. Sure we had Pagan, and a few 'stars', but nothing else. We had the worst list, or near worst list in the comp, and were living the eventual downside of many years of list mismanagement and short term fixes.

In 2003 we saw the end of the list as we knew it, with retirements, trades, super culls and a whole new start. We saw no less than 10 rejects given a new chance, and looked forward to the day in November 2004 when we would actually be allowed to draft again. No doubt about it we were in a hell of a lot of strife.

Since then, we've had some improvement, and the Wizzer win to warm our sub-coccles. But that is surely the fairy tale. We're lucky enough to have that, imagine being a Tigers fan. No fairy tales, just continued pain.

So, take our Wizzer Win as a huge plus, plus for sponsorship, marketing, and take a premiership ciup - any premiership cup. There will only be 2 this year, you know in your hearts we could never win the second one.

I know there were some posters here or on TBV or CSC talking up our new depth, and how solid our list was in the pre-season, but we can see now the gaps. They are the same gaps as last year, but some of our wins last year were against clubs in lulls. Bloody hell, people, who did we pick up in last years' end of season trading.... no one. just youth for 3-5 years time, not now.

The disappointment of breaking a fairy tale is hard but think of where we've come from. There is a hell of a long way to go, and you being fans should know that. Most importantly, knowing that you should support the club as best you can. We're not fans in successful years only, we're fans. We love the club. You must enjoy the small gains that we make for the next few years until we're really ready. And each of you should have expected that we were'nt ready. Not yet.

What did you honestly expect? Or more importantly, what should you have honestly expected? And how far from that actually are we?

fair comments, however what did i expect this year with the list we have?

1. 6 to 10 games.

2. Committment and desire.

3. No more "thrashings"

We may still win 6 to 10 games.....I am not sure that we've got the other two.

Isn't that what you hoped for, though?

I know we heard them talk about no more thrashings but our 2005 list is pretty much our 2004 list, notwithstanding some improvement in certain players, whilst arguably the competition has improved at a great level.

Hope isn't the same thing!

Molsey, I expected that 02 and 03 was rock bottom and each year we would steadily improve, but it seems we are going to have a bottom out of saint like proportions. I'm disappointed that we don't seem to have gtot better. In fact we look a fair bit worse than last year. When you are in the third year of a 3 year plan you want improvement otherwise you suspect the plan doesn't exist or is the wrong plan. Too many of our younger players appear to be getting worse and not better. I didn't expect that.

well put Gerry

i wasn't only hoping there would be no more thrashings.

Under an improved coaching and administration structure, new players with committment.....i would have thought at the very least we could have seen young players take a step forward.

With those small steps forward, I was never expecting big things, but at least to hell with the thrashings.

Our improvement in 2004 came only after the Melbourne trashing in my view. In that game a lot of our less skilled players were woeful, but seemed to get more confidence or game time as the season wore on. Effort was a big driver for staying on the field for Pagan, but this year I don't really know why we're selecting certain players to play, or to be on the field. Use of Prenders, De Luca, Setanta, Teague, Scotland, Sporn at times have been mystifying. We could still improve and get 10 wins similar to last year, as some teams drop off their form, or injuries start to take hold and our 'effort' players step up, but my main point is that expectations are too high given our complete failure in big name recuriting last year.

Consider that in 2003 Pagan had no choice to cut and recruit retreads.

In 2004 Pagan did have choices, he could draft youngsters for 3-5 years or continue retreading. He chose the former with Chambers and Longmuir the only additions, both perceived to be high in skill. To me, this was Pagan telling the world that 3-5 years is where we are aiming at.

Again gerry i think hope and expectations are different things.

Agree molsey, but didn't you expect steady improvement from our less than 100 gamers? Most of then seem to be going backwards. I didn't expect that. That is the most disappointing aspect

Last year we were badly exposed every time we played one of the top sides- lost by large margins every time. Did OK against the lesser sides. I don't think we've really played a top side at their best until last night. Only wins have been against struggling sides well below their best. Geelong are a lot better than we are, a lot more even, a lot more depth, a lot more talent. We haven't improved from last year to any extent and will continue to struggle against all the top sides. We may be competitive against the lesser sides though I'm getting the impression that many here wish we weren't.

Yes, but Kouta & Campo should be going backwards at the same time.

Who's stepped up? French and Waite, clearly. Huge plusses. Houla for mine too, been in our best a few times this year. Top 5 in the B&F. Others may disagree but I think Wiggler has been more solid as well, been our mr.fixit or 'last gasper'. Simmo hasn't stepped up but is looking better.
Who's fallen down? Sporn, Banno, Teague, ADL (big time), Morrell, McGrath.

Theres a few in between, Walker still very very young, Livo may be improving but he's injured etc.

There are a lot of retreads in teh 'fallen down' section, perhaps they're taking it a bit easier in their second year at Carlton. No more 'you must perform to keep your spot'? Teague excepted, I just think we're putting him on the wrong players - Pagan testing him against forward #2 rather than forward #4. Why are these guys not performing?

Teague fallen down? What can he do when he's conceding inches every week? Hate to have to say it but Lappin is well down on his AA form last year- ?carrying an injury.

BW - yep, note the last line. His effectiveness is being diminished based on inappropriate matchups, but given his height, he is going to have to face up to a few of these. He's at his best as a floating backman in my view.

You're right about Lappin, this back injury must be hampering his ability to get the ball. Stats well down. Not sure if its related but the club didnt really want a Lappin interview done - but they could just think our articles are crap!

the home grown young guys that we have recruited over the last 4-5 years should now be making a difference i.e having an impact on a games result - are they?
simpson - no
davies - no
wiggins - not really
sporn - no
livo - well, no
prenda - no
fevola - yes
waite - yes
(I have probably left guys out)

I would have expected much more from this lot. I don't know is it recruiting? lack of leadership? poor player development?

I won't inlcude Thornton, Fisher or Norman because they were speculative late picks

I blame all of this on Warren

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Noticed they hardly made any mention of his 200th. Can't understand that though after all the great service he's given us.

London, have put a comment in a parallel post about the development of our younger players, I think its important we break them up into development phases ie Simmo and Wiggler shouldn't have the same effect on games yet.

Second year players:
* Bentick - solid in & under with great foot skills. Good tackler. Good talent.
* Walker - definite talent.

Third year player:
* Simmo - starting to come through. Talented. ALot of skill, one of the best kicks on the list.
* Norman - good 2004, worrying signs in 2005. Talent not in question.
* Fisher - injured, but shows a lot of promise. Funny looking but you'd expect him to play a fair bit of footy.
* Croad - absolute champion. Just not at football. Apparently delisted but no one remembers him.

Fourth / Fifth years who should be showing signs:
* Waite - really emerging
* Davies - off the boil big time
* Livo - injured. Talent still being assessed.
* Thorny - key position player. Almost first picked each week.
* SPorn - off the boil, a bit of a worry. Has talent.
* wiggler - has desire, talent in question
* Banno (effectively 4th year) - real worry, seems that Pagan is trying to teach him something but not quite sure.
* ADL (effectrively a fifth year player given age) - real worry, off the boil.

If we give some slack to those say 21 or younger, other than say we're really short on those sort ofplayers in the team, our 4th/5th year players are a worry. Exclude Waite and Thorny, and we have a number of players at the crossroads. I would say that Sporn, Banno and ADL have gone backwards, but the others are the same player they were last year. I agree wholeheartedly that this is a problem and i should expect more from these guys.

YEah, I dont understand BlueWorld. I really dont. They're under resourced in my view but all they had to do was get Dannyboy or Jarusa or someone to have a 5 minute chat. It would have been read by a number of people because everyone loves rabbit.

Expectations.

Before the season started in general terms about 8 wins, but a better percentage than 2004.

Did not expect Barnaby to step up the way he has.

Expected a couple more of the younger players to step up more than they have. But that still may happen, long way to go in the season.

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