I've been consistent in my view about his point for years TBM and have given dozens of examples.
This is one example I wrote early last year.

http://www.talkingcarlton.com/phpBB2/vi ... c&start=40

My points of reference?
Tactical and game knowledge development.
For the first 3 years Pagan was at the club he pig headedly tried to install a game style which has proven to be a relic of the past.
I attended training at least once a week and it was Groundhog day. There was no scope for initiative or creativity. If a player tried to run the ball and handball to a teammate instead of kicking long to contests he would be stopped, yelled at reprogrammed.
It was all about kicking to contests and getting numbers around the ball.
A gamestyle which was made redundant by Brisbane in 2002.

i would suggest our players have learnt more about modern football in 3 months under Brett Ratten than they did in 4 years under Pagan.
Ratten and Crosisca have taught them set ups, structures, individual skills and the ability to run to the right spots. They have taught them the ability to utilise spare men when we have a 4 on 3 or a 2 on 1 and how to sacrifice for the team to create space.

The strength of our team at the moment is the defensive skills of the forwardline. Hawthorn and the Kangas play a possession gamestyle from defence similar to Port and adelaide where they retain possession from the backline and try to run the ball up the ground instead of kicking to a contest. The idea is to draw the opposition to you to create the loose man or to run and carry with scope to deliver passes to leading forwards.

The only way to stop this gamestyle is to create pressure from behind and force what defensive coaches call "hard outs".
It requires the forwards to chase, tackle and harrass which creates turnovers or errant kicks.
For it to work requires a full complement of forwards to chase as the opposition are now adept at using any spare players.
That is the reason Ratten has assembled a mobile forward line and heavily emphasises defensive drills.
Itb is also the reason Lance is struggling in the forwardline IMO

As much as our backs are performing very well, its the pressure from the forward line which is creating many opportunities for our backs tocreate.
As an example, on saturday we won 6 centre clearances ina row yet were getting hammered. The main reason IMO was our forwards had slacked of with defensive pressure, especially Fevola.

Players like Walker and Gibbs are learning more in a session at the moment than our kids did in a year in 2003.
Training is varied, purposeful and every drill has a purpose which can be vindicated.
Guys like Ratten have a bit to go yet to be senior coaches but they have given our players hope and belief that they can compete.
Far better than "smashball"

But hey, its just my opinion.

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Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.

My own view is the club have gone all out to win the NAB cup at the expense of full on development of youth..their thinking being some minor success is better than no success at all.
Youth development has been sacrificed in some cases, the club want membership numbers up and feel this is the best way to do it...even if its a meaningless mickey mouse cup..

I would have played a couple of extra kids at the expense of some veterans and the likes of Saddington and tried to balance the ledger a bit but no doubt Pagan and the MC want to win and wont be taking too many risks with untried kids.

I will wait until the season proper is underway before evaluating the coaching setup and youth development.....our game plan is different, we run the ball now and dont kick to contests..it isnt based on crash and bash, I want to see if that plan is sustainable when things are not going well and if we revert to flooding and more negative stuff....

I dont call youth development playing all the experienced blokes and then replacing them with youth when things are not working either and hoping the youth will fix the problems...thats been our mistake in the past.
Win lose or draw you introduce youth in a planned fashion...

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"When you have the attitude of a champion, you see adversity as your
training partner."
- Conor Gillen

Yeah I'm pretty interested where people get there evidence from and how they make a judgment about such things. I find it a particularly hard subject to form a set opinion about because I don't really know much about the goings on at a club and every coach/player is different.

I can't deny the fact that our training has improved in leaps and bounds but you can make an argument that our players are growing and that everything is just starting to fall in place from natural progression.

I have an opinion too about player development, however silly some might find it. I think it's hard to win premierships. I don't necessarily think that players should be allowed to be show ponies and given free reign to show their flair and talent I see so many teams who on paper could win a premiership from talent alone...but they never do....they continue to under-perform. Players need to be instilled with some form of discipline, they need to be worked and worked so the 1%'ers become second nature.

I would much rather a well-drilled group who does everything well as a team to enable them to win premierships than a bunch of talented sooks who wouldn't know determination if it hit em.

Anyway, the way my brain works there is no evidence out there strong enough to allow me to form the opinion that Pagan can't develop youngsters...but that's just me.

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The problem will be made. for the solution to be sold, to your face before your eyes, tolerance is now the new danger

CFC have tried to do many many things during this NAB cup and 98% of them have worked. These many things have been at the possible expense of maybe 2 players i.e Blackers and Jake. But IMHO even that is debatable. Both these lads have played 3 very strong games in the VFL and each has had 4 quarters in every game. Nothing wrong with that preparation.

In 3 NAB games the club have ........

Introduced a fast flowing game plan with the majority of players who will use it in 22 games this year. Those players are getting use to each other and working things out

Won games of football thereby gaining a winning mentality, confidence and self belief

Continued the snowball effect generated by Pratt and the new board by winning.

Put a smile on the face of old and new supporters.

Encouraged sponsorship and membership growth with the wins.

Got the media saying some pleasant things about CFC for a change

Commenced to cement a solid, fast, tall rebounding backline.

Commenced to cement a workable rotating onball brigade

Found out the worth of Cloke and Acland as a mobile rucking duo

Commenced to fine tune a forwardline without Red, Kouta and Waite for the majority of the time.

Commenced to sort out the strengths and weaknesses within the coaches box with all the new voices and viewpoints. The NAB cup is just as much about them fine tuning as it is the players. They have to know what they have at their disposal when it gets to the real stuff. If they played half a team that wasn't going to be on the park against Richmond isn't that just poor management on their behalf.

The victories have obviously taken the pressure of Pagan to some extent and regardless of what many of you think, do we really, really need the media playing the 'CFC beat up card' if CFC hadn't won a game in the pre-season. We all know that would have happened. Many here would want it both ways and love it. Pagan plays every kid, the team loses and you call for his head. You know it's true.

Sorry but Pagan is Coach so live with it.

Along the way they have played kids and those with limited AFL games in Murph, Gibbs, Setanta, Harlett, Kennedy, Bower, Jackson, Young and
Russell.

All the above has been accomplished in 3 games.

There are alot of things the Coaching staff, selection committee, fitness staff and the players have done well in the past month. To say otherwise doesn't take in the big picture of where CFC was at the end of 2006 and where it is headed so far in 2007.

So some may wish to nitpick about who has and who hasn't been played as is their right. But on the whole CFC can't please everyone all the time as we well know here on TC , but they have got far more right than wrong in the past month and you are dreamin if you think otherwise.

Regards Cazzesman

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Ricky Gervais - “Everyone has the right to hold whatever beliefs they want. And everyone else has the right to find those beliefs f***ing ridiculous.”

Wins and losses hey?
We are in the same position we were exactly 2 years ago.

Things have got way off track.
I'm not saying Denis is wrong or I know better.
Its a thread about the preferred approach. I've repeatedly stated that the wins are nice but they are secondary IMO and I dont sway from that.
We should be building a premiership team and the debatable point is how do we best achieve that.
Pagan may well be correct but guess what, heaven forbid there may be some better options.

The point of this thread was to ask about peoples opinions before the event. Had we lost on Saturday, it would have been easy to start the thread and give an opinion after the event. I wanted to give my opinion before the game instead of being smart in hindsight.
I believe we would have benefitted more by giving Blackers, Grigg or Jake a run at the expense of Kouta and Red.
Would that have cost us the game? Who knows but I doubt it. If it did, so be it!
Giving Jackson and Bower a game and mostly sitting them on the bench with Whitnall whilst Stevens again is expected to play 95% helps no one.
He'll be broken down again by round 10 and who benefits from that?

If we cant view differing opinions without it being percieved as nitpicking, we've lost the plot as a club.
Questioning our methods and directions is healthy. As long as our long term goal of sustainable success is the same.

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Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.

What are your expectations from the NAB cup and how do you want to utilise it?
Is it an opportunity to play kids and expose them to near top level football or is it a dress rehearsal to the season?
Whilst obtaining a winning culture is important, how does that restrict or assist a developmental system?
The MC have stated that they want to get a settled back six. Is that how we should utilise the pre season competition?

Lastly, let me say that this is just my opinion and I'm not saying it is correct but I've been consistent in my view. We must keep long term development as our main aim and it should be Pagans primary brief. That's what he should be judged on, how we develop our youngsters, not how many games he wins.

What are your thoughts?

BV above are some edited portions of your initial post.

You put forward your views and asked what people thought. You thought the NAB cup should be about development. I thought there was a bigger picture to the NAB cup than purely development.

My opinion is the NAB Cup is about development, momentum, gaining confidence (In players and coaches) and rebuilding the CFC brand. In my opinion I think the Club has done a great job of trying to juggle 5 balls plus give a number of kids a go.

Theoretically we are in the same situation as the 2005 NAB Cup but talent wise we are miles ahead, so the situation is actually very different.

I agree that maybe Kouta, Red and Lappo could have been rested more. But as I wrote earlier those guys will be in our 22 most weeks when fit so I believe the coaching staff played them to see how the core 2007 team will fit together.

Not playing Jake, Grigga and Blackers is not the end of the world as afar as their development goes. My opinions/thoughts are that the strategy on the whole has been sound for CFC and covered more aspects of what will ultimately make CFC a better all around club.

Regards Cazzesman

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Ricky Gervais - “Everyone has the right to hold whatever beliefs they want. And everyone else has the right to find those beliefs f***ing ridiculous.”

All very valid points Cazzesman.
It was meant to be a thread asking people thoughts about what they expected from the nab cup.
It took a left hand turn about 10 posts ago and is heading somewhere I've no interest in going.

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Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.

It was a great question, one I started to answer several times but found I'd fill pages.

In the end I actually wanted to not win last Saturday, to play 2 or 3 more kids and really experiment but I can see the club with new coaches, some new moves and 2 ruckmen and new captain they wanted to trial, they took the options they did.

When things are really back on track I expect us to treat the NAB with a touch of disdain. I guess for now, the club sees momentum, belief and memberships are as important as anything else.

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

winning = development
winning = momentum

the club is doing a great job and it is all positive. So maybe 10% -15% of the list misses getitng a run in the first 3 games and we are getting it wrong???????

I'm having a great time seeing us win - Murphy continues to develop, Setanta's passion and growth, Gibbs's few touches on Saturday night, Kennedy against the Hawks, WOW the promise of Hartlett, Bentick in and under, Eddie.....oh Eddie, Waite off HB, our 196cm ruck rovers Ackland and Cloke, T Bird as a 3rd key back - running and creating, Stevens is DELIVERING.

Rome wasn't built in one day and i think given everything we HAVE tried and experimented with in 3 games.....we'll everything is on track and well done to the CFC.

Well assuming that I went off track I can answer it easily...I just want to win.

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The problem will be made. for the solution to be sold, to your face before your eyes, tolerance is now the new danger

BV would wholeheartedly agree with your sentiments however the sad fact remains that we do not have Collingwood's bank balance and this must inffulence our decision making. Just like North that are strapped for cash we must play to win, with short term conssideration outweighing long term player development. The increased membership sales and corporate support cannot be sneezed at given our precarious financial position. Pratt digging into his pocket is not enough.

I too got frustrated with Blackwell missing from the side crying for more in an unders, Bower not getting a game from round one defies logic. Would have loved to see Grigg matched up on Houli against Essendon*. We have only seen the one recruit play so far out of new stock which is disappointing. But then again Essendon* did not give Gumbleton nor Jetta a run. Watching second round pick Chris Schmidt get a good taste of senior football for the Lions made me envious of the Lions' preparedness to give their youngsters a go.

By the way on a completely unrelated matter also agree with your views on a culture that has stigffled our creativity on the field. Not so much the Walker example because in my opinion he is our most important attcking backman. Our players are reluctant to back themselves to kick a goal when the opportunity arises, always looking for the soft option being Fevola even with four defenders hanging off him. We need players who can take on the defence like Brent Harvey did running past Jordan Russell to kick a goal. I just hope Rusell is not engineered into a tagging machine.

Having said that very positive start to the year the only blemish being Red's appointment as Captain.

Conundrum

I'm with Dannyboy here, but I'll add a confusing point: we're doing this for development.

Not development of all of our kids, but more development of our game plan. Looking through our list we don't really have the depth of talent and experience to expect 50% of our starting 22 to walk in for one practise game and have confidence they will execute our game plan for 20 - 22 games thereafter. They need time to learn. They need some older heads around to steady the ship, help them out on-field. We don't have much to offer there so the net result is we see virtually our best team out on the field.

I think in years to come as the experience grows in the group, and the game plan or positioning of players isn't overhauled as much, we will see maybe 6 or 7 spots up for grabs for kids to come in and get a taste.

Until then I'm happy for us to tinker around with a 22 that contains so many players aged 23 and under.

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29 different attributes,
And only 7 that you like;
20 ways to see the world,
Or 20 ways to start a fight.

He was rotated a lot more than that.

According to Stevens we have been experimenting:

http://carltonfc.com.au/Season2007/News ... wsId=39037

I think it should be used just to get players match hardened so that they're primed to go in round 1. Whether we get knocked out in the first round or win the thing it makes no difference as the result is not important.

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"We used to sit around and talk about how bad the game plan was." Anthony Koutoufides

The result is not important to those up the pointy end of the ladder but for those kicking and scratching their way off the bottom the importance can't be measured. It huge make no mistake.

Do you think the 6-8 guys under 21 with under 20 games would get more out of Saturday night at the Dome or Friday arvo in Bendigo against a team of kids from the Pies?

What will give them more momentum into Rd 1. A win or a solid performance on Sat or nil all draw in Bendigo?

Regards Cazzesman

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Ricky Gervais - “Everyone has the right to hold whatever beliefs they want. And everyone else has the right to find those beliefs f***ing ridiculous.”

Couldn't agree more.

Because what.....you say so?

If you want to refute my post, come back with something better than that.
When was he off the ground? How long for?

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Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.

Do you have any data?

I'm not prepared to watch the game and record that. But are you??

Does anyone here have the TOG for Stevens last Saturday?

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29 different attributes,
And only 7 that you like;
20 ways to see the world,
Or 20 ways to start a fight.

Were you at the game?

No, but I expect when Nick was on my TV screen, it was really him.

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Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.