Not not Tim Lane to not tell both sides of the story...

As Elwood said, no weights program in place - what an absolute disgrace - was the first thing Pagan put in place.

Not only were we too slow, too short and unskilled, we were a bunch of skinny kids (and adults).

I can just imagine a 2002 pre-season conversation between Brittain and lets say Trent Sporn to use an example...


Trent Sporn: Hey Britts, what are those grey metal objects gathering dust and cobwebs in the dungeon? And what's with the sign out the front saying "DO NOT ENTER"?

Wayne Brittain: Trent, those grey metal objects, they're called weights and what we call the dungeon, the other 15 Clubs call the weight-room.

TS: Thanks for that Brits. Look, I've got a confession to make, I broke the Club rules and took a looksie inside the dungeon, sorry, I mean weight-room.

WB: That's OK Trent, you can tell me...

TS: Well Britts, I nearly got asphyxiated with all the dust. The place looked like it hadn't been used for well over 15 years. Anyway, I nearly tripped over one of these so-called weights, I mean, it blended into the floor with the dust and all. Anyway, to cut a long story short, I thought that I'd put it back in it's rightful spot. I spotted a gap were it said "5kg Dumb Bells" Let me tell you, that flower was pretty damn heavy, I nearly put my back out carrying it over to the rack. It's still a bit sore actually.

WB: Look Trent, don't worry about it. Now you've probably heard all sorts of crazy rumours that the players from the other 15 Clubs spend most of their pre-seasons inside these weight-rooms. I can asure you that it's all unnecessary since that rippling physique of yours is perfect for the bash and crash of AFL football.

TS: Thanks Britts, I relieved to hear that...


Anyway, if you're into Pagan bashing as a sport, no doubt you would have wet yourself over the article.

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I´ve got less posts than a St Kilda troll.

I don't have too much of a problem with the article. It is clear that Brittain was a victim of circumstance. As Lane hinted at his sacking, I believe had as much to do with Elliott clinging to power as it was a comment on his abilities as a coach. Let's face it, if Denis, or any coach for that matter, took Carlton to it's first wooden I suspect he'd have come under some very serious scrutiny as well. Remember we had not finished a season lower than 11th up until that point.

On the player empowerment comment that Lane holds up as being a good method due to the results achieved by Parko and the team. Firstly, Parkin himself admits he should have started to clean out the club after the 95GF, or most certainly at the end of the 1996. The fact we made the 99GF and had reasonably good home and away seasons in 2000/2001 says more about our leaders at the time and the reasons why it was right to empower them than it does about whether Brittain's methods or Pagan's methods are better or worse than the other.

Look at the names that Parkin and Brittain had under them, and at their prime in most instances ... Kernahan, Williams, Silvagni, Ratten, Bradley, Dean, Koutoufides, among many, these are not only some of the BEST EVER players our great club has had the fortune to "own", but also most were in the best 1 or 2 in the AFL for the positions they played in. Why wouldn't you give the power to them? Which kid, or 2nd tier player, would fail to hang on every word that a Kernahan, or a Silvagni breathed?

But times changes and players get old. Who was there to replace them? O'Reilly, Mansfield, Charles, McGuane??? Poor old Wayne Brittain is the meat in the sandwhich, he inherited a list and a club that had no comprehension or ability to read the way of the future for building a successful team. Parkin denies it, but there's anecdotal evidence to suggest Elliott had a bit to do with some our recruiting of that era. Indeed, little does it matter who was to blame, the point is we [REDACTED] up with our recruiting policies and just as our draft penalties are hindering Pagan's progress, so too was Brittain hindered by our draft foibles from the years before he took over the helm.

If the empowerment route is one that Tim thinks we should be taking now, who would he empower? Fevola? Campo?* Kouta? Lance? Are any of those guys the natural born leaders of the ilk of Sticks and SOS? Kouta's playing ability is still up to scratch, IMO, albeit nowhere near his peak of 4 years ago, but I'm not sure Kouta would capture the attention of the group in the same way that Sticks would have. Fact is we have been blessed with some bloody good people at the club, and it is probably naive to expect that this fortune can continue for year after year.

*On Campo, personally, I'm not into the Campo bashing that happens, but that said, his inability to deal with taggers and get suspended is not good enough IMO. Other leaders of our club in the past would not have fallen for such cheap issues as some of our leaders are at the moment.

I'm sure if these forums were around at the time there'd have been plenty of naysayers about Sticks being given the captaincy at such a young age and after only one year with the club. But Walls saw in him somehting special. Leaders of Kernahan's stature are once in a generation. Just as we may need to wait a few more years to see another Kouta c2000-01 we may need to wait a good while yet to be lucky enough to have a captain of Kernahan's abilities.

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The fact that Corey won our B&F in 2002 is an indictment itself!

Excellent article.

If Lane's reference to Orwell needs substantiation, this thread should be more than sufficient.

What have you contributed to the CFC?

Honestly Surrey, you just like to go anti-Clem don't you...

And by posting what you wrote above, you're just a hypocrite as well. Just because my opinion is different to yours, you decide to knock me, questioning my support of the CFC and my contribution. Talking of the pot calling the kettle black...you're doing the same thing that you're accusing me of. Unless of course you are implying I'm not a true Carlton supporter. And without having met me that's rather weak. Just because Tim Lane is in the media and a prominent Carlton personality doesn't mean he can't be wrong.

Who says I can't disagree with Tim Lane? I think there are some problems in his article that aren't addressed properly and not thought through. The intangible of culture is not properly addressed, what he's failed to realise is that there are still remnants of the past in the current team and they are now in leadership positions.

His headline i have no problem with. Brittain was hard done by, but he was clearly inadequate when it came to trading and drafting. His philosophies had been taught by Parkin.

If Brittain's record at Carlton was short (1 year), then how about his record at Richmond for 2 years? Not much better. Surely this is an indictment of Brittain's inability to deal in the area of list management.





You are entitled to your opinion. I just think the evidence of the past 3 years has shown Brittain to be inept when it comes to list management. As a match day coach, he wasn't bad, I don't think even the Brittain knockers can begrudge him that, but as an overall coach, particularly one who had the respect of the playing group, then I think Wayne failed.

He was dealt a harsh hand, yes, but he had a hand in the cards he was dealt because of his being assistant under Parkin for a fair while.

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"A good composer does not initiate. He steals."

- Igor Stravinsky

Tim has shown on radio over the last 3 seasons that he does not have much idea what has been happening at the Club he supports. The article shows how naive he is in this regard.

Empowerment is great when you have the best group of 8 senior players in the AFL, however as they retire you don't "empower" your young kids, they need to be lead by example.

Someone said Houlihan would have progressed under Brittain anyway. Well, the truth is that both Houlihan and Fevola were likely to be delisted in 2002. Parkin himself has said this year that Denis has been able to get them performing in a way he and Brittain had not been able to achieve, and did not expect to see.

And re Brittain, indeed he was dealt a bad deck of cards in 2002, but who can remember the poor finals performance against Richmond in 2001 after demolishing Adelaide the week before? And when he went to Richmond, which delisted Carlton players did he bring across with him?

Not about me Clem because I didn't bag the man. He has his views about CFC and I have mine. We surely must be able to accept others views (especially people who have been life long Carlton people more than you and I). Next time you criticise someone, may I suggest you remember who this person is and what role they have. Unlike you and I some people's views are held in greater respect within the community and Carlton. Maybe just maybe, Tim knows more about certain situations then you and I also.

Where in my original post did i attack the man? I said I disagreed with his opinion, is that not allowed? Did I call him anything? I just said he'd failed to see the real problem. What's wrong with that?

Accepting and agreeing are two different things in case you hadn't noticed...

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"A good composer does not initiate. He steals."

- Igor Stravinsky

Give me a break Surrey...

Tim Lane is a journalist.Regardless of him being a Carlton supporter, he is fair game if people chose to disagree with his view.
The fact that he is a long term Carlton supporter is irrelevant.To suggest that Clem is somehow impertinent to criticise Mr Lane is rubbish!

You know I read Tim's article carefully and as far as I can see he makes almost exactly the same comment as you.

The point that Tim was making, and that most posters in this converstaion seem to have missed in their rush to bag him, is that empowerment DID work in 95, but just because it didn't in 2002 is no reason to write it off as a player management method. It's horses for courses.

As for Houlihan, well some players play well under some coaches and not under others. I'm sure Parkin and Pagan have had their failures, if Pagan is so omniscient (and I do htink he's a bloody good coach) then why couldn't he get Corey to play weel all the time?

Don't give me the shit about him not being good enough, that's irrelevent, what some people here seem to be implying is that Brittain was shit just because he could not inspire all his players all the time. Well guess what, neither can Pagan. That's no disrespect, it's just the way things are.

I wrote something a while back about some comments Tim Lane made on the radio a few weeks ago along these lines. For some reason he has decided to ramp up the rhetoric this year.

And Surrey, seriously, why do you choose to come onto TC with your status as hidden? What is the reasoning behind wanting to be hidden?

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If Brittain was still in charge:

Fevola would have been at Essendon* for a 3rd round pick
Houlihan would have been at the Dees or Saints
Beaumont, Murphy McKernan and Allan would have been our senior core
No Nick Stevens, Teague and maybe Scotland
Sponsors would have stayed away
We would have lost countless players because of the salary cap squeeze


Yeah sounds like a wrong decision to me

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T E A M

i generally agree with Tim Lane, but on this occassion he is talking from his anus.

In 2002, Wayne Brittain coached the CLub to its worst year in our proud history. He was a defensively minded hack, whose players weren't strong, fit or good enough.

He presided over some of the worst recruiting of all time. His judgement was so poor, that he thought we close to a flag in 2002 and he recruited the ageing hacks in Mckernan and Murphy and ignored the 2001 best draft of all time.

And we can't forget those magnificent trades of Eccels, gallagher and lindsay smith. where would we be without those champions.

flower off!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Go Blues

Sorry folks, I see nothing wrong with Tim Lanes article.
List management is the most imprecise skill imaginable.
When we were the 2nd best side around in 2000 and 2001 (and we definitely were), who was calling for rebuilding?

Knowing when a collection of athletes is going off the boil is impossible.
I thought Brisbane should have sold the shop after 2002.
They were old and I thought they had run their race.
They then won in 2003.
Where does the responsibility lie?
Should Matthews and co. traded off players for low picks and an eye to the future or were they correct in topping up and getting another flag?
Had they not won in 2003, would they have been criticised and would it have been warranted?

Carlton of 2002 had an old list but some quality youngsters who are the establishing base of todays team.
How would this years team fare if Kouta missed the year, our key forward in Fev played about 10 games and was limited in his output in the others?
Stevo out for most of the year, Barnaby to miss the season and perhaps throw in Waite to play limited games.

How would the Blues of 2005 fare?
Last week, we couldnt get near last years wooden spooners with minimal injuries!

Brittain wasnt a messiah. He wasnt a good list manager and his people skills were poor.
But lets not kid ourselves that anyone at the Carlton football club was any better.
He was however a Carlton person who gave 100% to our club 24 hours a day.
He was hung out to dry by weak individuals who couldnt take responsibility for their own failings.

The way Wayne Brittain was treated by our club was a disgrace.

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Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.

I don't see it as a biggy but if you perfer ALL your message board posters to change this, please highlight this on your policies, and we will all change or don't offer it within our profiles!

Actually Jarusa, another thing .... WHAT IS YOUR POINT? Are you implying something towards me and if so please elaborate because I have had enough of the shit remarks continously being thrown towards me.

The policies have got nothing to do with me.

I was just interested in the reasoning behind it, that is all. If you don't want to answer you don't have to.

How is it a shit remark? It is a simple question, no judgements have been made in that question. If you can find any insults in that question please point them out.

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Even Sticks acknowledges they were trying to "pinch" a premiership with a bit of top up in those days.

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"Hence you will not say that Greeks fight like heroes but that heroes fight like Greeks"?

Winston Churchill

I'm sure Fletcher, Eccles, Freeborn, Hulme & Franchina would still be playing. We all know we lack class but had Brittain stayed he would have given most of our younger talented players away (because he was unable to get the best out of them) and we'd have a team full of foot soldiers that would never go near to winning a premiership.

not such a bad article from Tim.

Not sure what is behind the timig of it though. Having said that we have been very lucky with the press this week. After last weeks pathetic perfomance, no one has really laid into us.

What Tims's article does lack is mention of the poor decision making when it came to recruitment during his time (and Parkin's)

Tim Lane said a lot of relevant things. I always felt that Brittian had a very bad run of luck injury wise, coupled with bad recruiting (which wasn't all his fault, it's more than just the coach who recruits players), meant that we were up shit creek.
But then again with Denis Pagan free, would one go for the coach of 2 flags whose team was amongst the most consistent of the 90's with, at times, limited resources?
I think we made the right decision.

I still think Brittian was a good coach who would do well again if given the chance.

Lane's timing of the article is strange. I would bet my left foot (my preferred kicking foot) that if we had beaten Richmond, this article would not have seen the light of day.

Ok off to the game. Hopefully tonight will make me forget what woulda, coulda, and shoulda, to what's gunna.

COME ON BLUE BOYS