Thornton, Fisher at odds (Fisher & Thornton re-signed)

gerry atric · **Joined:** Tue Mar 01, 2005 9:35 am **Posts:** 2125

Quote:

My main gripe is that I don't think we'd be able to lure a gun young Hawk next year anyway because who wants to come to Carlton? That's the main problem; who wants to come to Carlton if no one wants to stay at Carlton? That's the problem we face and the more we try to paper over the cracks and say that player X left for the money, then we're not addressing the real issue here.

Fair point Clem. I guess I'm hoping we struggle through the next year or two with our list in tact, add a few more top picks, get over our debt, get a young creative coach and head for blue skies. It's the next few years that are the problem

showbag · **Joined:** Tue Mar 01, 2005 12:44 am **Posts:** 2661

bnz wrote:

And if your aunty had a set of nuts she would be your uncle.

she can't just be my aunty with nuts?... :cry:

tommi · **Posted:** Sat Oct 07, 2006 12:08 pm

Look...........

i've said it before........and i'll say it again.............!

draft.........only............CARLTON........kids......!

that's it....simple.......!

draft the best available kid that's supported Carlton
all their lives........!

imagine that........a team of players all playing for the
jumper like never before..........!

the jumper.........!

the %$#@ING jumper.............!

kindest regards tommi

yes yes......i know it's impossible to do this...........!

but just..........imagine..............!

and another thing..........i said earlier......."i've said this before".......
but i haven't really..............i've just thought it before.........!

Kaptain Kouta · **Joined:** Mon Feb 28, 2005 12:41 pm **Posts:** 63509

I like your thinking, tommi!

Shame it's not really possible, but I like the thought.

jim · **Joined:** Wed Oct 12, 2005 9:21 pm **Posts:** 8183

Kaptain Kouta wrote:

CarltonClem wrote:

Kaptain Kouta wrote:

blueman wrote:

If Pagan had been sacked, Thornton would have re signed.

There's no way you know that statement is true.

So which way do you read the statement in the Age that says he refused to talk to Pagan re: coming back?

If he liked the coach, he'd stay wouldn't he once Carlton offered roughly the same amount of money?

That's the question that mjonc and others don't seem to have an answer to.

*Carlton made a 2nd offer roughly the same as Hawthorn, why didn't Bret take it???*

I take your point, Clem, but unless you're Thornton, there's no-one here who can categorically say that Thornton would have stayed if Pagan had have gone.

You have to look past any anti-Pagan feelings you may have.

Thornton was obviously unhappy. His demeanour over the last 2 seasons shows this. But no one person here can categorically state that it came down to a case of "either Denis goes or I do". And if he did say something like that, who is he to demand that of the entire Club anyway?

Maybe we can use that theory in court as well. No murderer would ever get convicted because no-one actually saw them do it. They get convicted on evidence.

Thornton just follows the way of others previously who have with gone after a falling out with our so-called coach. A trained relationship was mentioned in the "herald-Sun today as a reason why we wanted to leave. We have big problems here. We are not a happy place to be. Players leave and other's don't want to come here. You need to get to the root of the problem and solve it,. In this case "throwing the problem" out the door would help. If we get 2 more years of this, where the hell will the club be? Where's Fraser and the EGM?!

camel · **Posted:** Sat Oct 07, 2006 12:19 pm

gerry atric wrote:

Quote:

John Blakey won a GF or two. Peter Bell goes alright.

Not sure if I'm with you here CB. Johnny Blakely left the Roys in a swap for MCcarthy (who bombed) Blakely played in two flags at North, got over 300 games, most at North and left at age 36 to retirement- not sure if you could blame DP for that. In fact Blakely might actually thank him. Bell left gratefully to return to his old club after North had given him two flags and North won handsomely on the Schwatter deal - got a Norm Smith/ B&f young player in GRant. Pagan was unhappy with Schwassy for a needless costly finals suspension. Reasonable to be, may have cost a flag. I think the arguement re Pagan and the players needs some substance. I'm not rapt in Pagan, but quality people like Archer etc are. Thornton was used as a key player by Pagan. Pagan made a real fuss of him when he was injured in the Wiz GF. Perhaps Bret's ego has been stroked by the HAwks, maybe 'Side Show Bob' Kennett did a dance for him in his carny jacket, who knows. I think Bret is laying low because the Hawks don't want him persuaded by CArlton people. Players don't usually win if they walk out for money. Thornton's defection is really hurting Carlton. He needs to face up to that and explain himself to the Carlton supporters who have paid his wage and development costs for 5 years why he is walking out. But he is hiding away like a gutless selfish rat. I'd rather lose him to Essendon* for nothing than give him away for less than #6. Hawthorn are rating him higher than all their other young guns except Hodge. If they rate him that highly they can deal. We musn't blink. We have #1 pick on PSD. Short term pain. long term gain.

Sorry, I got Blakely confused with Martin Pike. :oops:

I was merely naming players I could recall off the top of my head that had left North and had some success. I couldn't really recall the reasons why they left.

I wasn't trying to agree or disagree with the original poster's point.

Navy Blue Horse · **Joined:** Mon Feb 28, 2005 2:39 pm **Posts:** 15848

24 Hours later:

this time yesterday I was shattered when I heard about Thornton. Now? I'm past caring really. He's a good player, not a superstar, probably made to look better as he's capable when many of our players are not. As long as we get a good trade for him I'll be happy. If they don't want to play for us, @#$%&! them off, plain and simple.

We're going to be shit for another 2 years anyway, with or without BT. We'll probably be better off in 3 years when the young draftee we pick up as a replacement for Bret begins to mature around the same time as Murphy, Pick 1, Kennedy, Simpson, etc.

I thought it was the end of the world when Hamill left, and was disappointed when Campo left. Look how they've turned out. There is such a thing as football karma, Bret will get his. Time to move on and welcome the next generation.

Hamill= Campo = Thornton = Judas

Kaptain Kouta · **Joined:** Mon Feb 28, 2005 12:41 pm **Posts:** 63509

I thought you were talking about quality players who all seemed to love playing under Pagan, including some who he developed from the juniors ranks.

Andain · **Posted:** Sat Oct 07, 2006 12:27 pm

Here's my two cents... the only good thing to come out of this is that we've got all the cards. Losing Thornton isn't a salary cap issue so itâ€™s not as if we're strapped for cash. There is interest in Thornton from multiple clubs so itâ€™s not as if we need to trade him to the Hawks. We have the number 1 PSD pick so if the Hawks wants to play hardball and not offer us a decent trade for a 22 year old full back with 100 games experience (say Pick 6 or Jordan Lewis) we can just give them the finger and hope that Thornton does the right thing and re-signs before the PSD or we just redraft him using our number 1 PSD pick.

bigyellowjoint · **Posted:** Sat Oct 07, 2006 12:31 pm

Kaptain Kouta wrote:

I like your thinking, tommi!

Shame it's not really possible, but I like the thought.

Very interesting point Tommi. West Coast had several Perth boys, Kerr and Cousins spring to mind. Didn't they play passionately during the finals.

Passion for the state or the jumper can go a long way. C'mon down, Tomi Johnson, Sammy Sheldon.

Carlton God · **Joined:** Tue Jun 07, 2005 10:39 pm **Posts:** 487

CarltonClem wrote:

Hawthorn are a better run club than Carlton. Their facilities are good, their administration has balls, their player group seems to be tight-knit and they embrace new ideas and seem to be going places.

It would seem Clarkson has reasonable man management skills; the problem that the players seem to have with Denis (reading between the lines of what some posters have said) is that he's too inflexible, get on his bad side and he won't give you another chance unless he wants to. No matter how hard you try, if you get on his bad side, you're GAWN.

Why do you think young players feel like they can't make a mistake when they get out there for the 5 minutes they're allowed? Cos they get dragged if they make a mistake. When Simmo had his 3rd donut game, he was (I can't remember the poster who posted this - but it was on here) that he was *this* close to being traded or delisted. The quote went something like this "if his hand's not broken, he's gone" - turned out his hand was broken.

Why were so many players playing injured this year? Stevens with OP, Bentick with that shoulder, last year we had Fev play with that groin - if Pagan had any sense, he would have dropped Fev and told him to get himself back into shape. It's appalling.

Thornton is a passionate person. You can't deny that. He may be selfish on the field, that might translate to off-field selfishness. Who knows? I've never met him. However, because he's so passionate, he sees his teammates go through all this, it's little wonder that he has issues with the coach.

How much confidence does Denis give the players? SFA. Why do the kids play completely differently to when they burn up in the VFL? Why are their styles of play completely different? Because Denis has no faith in them. It's amazing what an injection of faith from a coach will give you; Denis only has faith in those drafted before 20.

All the Pagan apologists seem to want to absolve him with any blame here, preferring to place it on Thornton. My question is this. If we start 1-6 or something next year, what are you going to say?

What happens when Setanta gets towelled up (as he inevitably will at some point - even SOS did)? You'll all be saying - I wish we had Thornton who could at least have given us another option. Instead we're going to throw Paul Bower, Setanta O'hAilpin and Adam Hartlett into the deep end with no support other than a loose man in defence named Lance Whitnall. We will have fewer options with Thornton gone and if you think losing him is good, then you'd better think again, particularly when Hawthorn doesn't blink and doesn't offer pick 6 making us lose Thornton for nothing.

Wolfe · **Posted:** Sat Oct 07, 2006 12:40 pm

Agreed BNZ there are a few players who will have problems with wanting to move from a club for "fresh start" or in our case the club hasnt been a super positive place to be in recent times with our current events so i guess some players will decide they have enough but as we also know the wheel will turn and history shows that other clubs have had similar issues ie Brisbane / saints / collingwood / Hawks / Tigers to name a few.. all have spent time at rock bottom and then have come out better and stronger.

In the case of Thornton it will be a shame that he wants out but so be it ... i think i am more annoyed from the investment that the Blues put in him from rookie to list and 4-5 years of investment. As for a player he is a loss as we can ill afford to loose a key player down back... but in reality he is a good average player ... has a bit of an attitude which i think is something that perhaps meant i wasnt as worried about him wanting out as if we where talking about Simpson / walker ect

The key things that we have to accept now
#1 - We play hard ball with him and get the best deal .. he wants out and wants to go to the Hawks ... then we chase pick 6 ... no stuffing around the hawks have been the benchmark in getting excellent picks for players with ? marks over them ... Hay / Thompson to name a the most recent and of course Everett who is 30+ out of contract and wants to go to the swans .. what do they want a first rounder.. well one thing we can do is follow the same pattern as the Hawks. You want thornton he is worth more than Everett you need him cough up a decent first rounder..If not look at the Tigers / Brisbane / Saints / Bombers and see what they offer as all prob need a key back..Its up to the Hawks to pay the same as what they woud expect.. and we owe nothing to Thornton in allowing him to chose where he wants to go ... if he wants Hawks they will have to pay other wise he can go where ever we get the best deal... or the PSD where it will be pot luck.

#2 We now can see the developement of players like Santanta / Bower / Edwards / Flint and possibkly means the Bano will survive being cut.
With Thornton going turn into a positive and hopefully Santanta steps up and becomes better than what Thornton was a more mobile taller bigger KPP backman.

#3 More important than ever ... This Club / Board now has to go on the front foot ... get quality Assistants and get the onfield situation sorted out .. by end of season next year this club has to show that its on the way up .. its the place to be ... its going forward and players want to be part of the Blues revival.. The board needs to get its off Field crap sorted out and make sure they are doing everything to get some harmony and good vibe back into the place .. no more stuffing around and amaturish media bungles and making our club look like the sambles it has been.. it must be a club people want to associate with again .. Suporters want to support.. .Players want to play for..
This we have to get right and it starts now ... or instead of thornton the names we will loose will be Simmo / Murphy / walker .. ect..

With Thornton if he goes we will suffer bacuse we cant afford to loose a key player we have invested 5 years into but at end of the Day thornton is a good average player..good luck to him but make the hawks pay to get him

Siegfried · **Joined:** Fri Jun 24, 2005 12:30 pm **Posts:** 2862

Mighty Blues wrote:

Nathan Brown the twin brother of Mitchell Brown... Stellar draft camp..KP Backman.... No guy that runs around like a headless chook from melbourne thank you very much.
Whilst i'll be the first to concede losing T-Bird is definetly not what we were wishing....It is not as bad as most think... It realistlically should open up 1 very high if not 2 extra picks come draft day. Now as long as Carlton dont lose there cool.. We will continue to take Gibbs at 1 rather than Hansen who is the obvious candidate to fill the gaps in the backline..or the burger to fill the ruck deficiencies...and then say we get 2 more picks from the 15- 25/30 range we use 17 for another running type (Connors type) 19 on a tough midfielder than the highest pick we receive for T-bird we use on the best available Key defender at around 15 then with the second pick 25-30 range Welcome Mr Nathan Brown.

The boys on SEN this morning reckon that Brown could very well go top 10.

Synbad · **Posted:** Sat Oct 07, 2006 12:44 pm

Navy Blue Horse wrote:

24 Hours later:

this time yesterday I was shattered when I heard about Thornton. Now? I'm past caring really. He's a good player, not a superstar, probably made to look better as he's capable when many of our players are not. As long as we get a good trade for him I'll be happy. If they don't want to play for us, F@%&#! them off, plain and simple.

We're going to be shit for another 2 years anyway, with or without BT. We'll probably be better off in 3 years when the young draftee we pick up as a replacement for Bret begins to mature around the same time as Murphy, Pick 1, Kennedy, Simpson, etc.

I thought it was the end of the world when Hamill left, and was disappointed when Campo left. Look how they've turned out. There is such a thing as football karma, Bret will get his. Time to move on and welcome the next generation.

Hamill= Campo = Thornton = Judas

That makes you feel better calling him Judas doesnt it?
You think its for the money or because he doesnt love the club.

The problem is we dont have an infrustructure to allow these kids to develop.. to belong and to enjoy.

Russell is Judas too isnt he???

If you dont address the fundamentals of this footy club every player manager will advise their chargers to get the hell out of here.

Hamill and Campo are a different kettle of fish altogether...

Were talking about our kids arent happy.. and some of us have been screaming it for ages...!!!

Where the hell is we're = weare aNd that green fried eggs banana???

Quiet are they??

Laying low???

Instead of calling some of us negative .. why not turn your attention to whats really going on...
We had an opportunity to fit in a new CEO this week who would have been more competent in negotiations.
We came out and said T Bird is staying and were close a couple of hours before he quit!!!

What the hell is that??
do we have people who have no clue or dont want to see whats really going on ???

Where are the big 4???

The unity men!!!

They came out and stuck their faces on the back page of the hun as the people in charge of this footy club!!!... so i guess all blame has to go to them...

Its not about Thornton people.. its about our youth!!!

Kidding yourselves we will get something great for Thornton is babyish!!!...

We wont.. we will get something average or less... believe me!!!

We are perceived as clowns by everyone in the footy world.. and we will be treated with contempt.

Were not in a good position to bargain... but what will happen is the Thornton thing will be a lynchpin for alot of others to jump ship.

T Bird went away with 10 of his teamates.. which means they couldnt/ didnt try / wouldnt talk him out of it.

On the flip side we might get some news about people coming in and making changes at this club.

Smorgon / Malouf and Pagan have lost control and were spiralling downwards out of control.

They dont have a clue.. and they have to go.

Each of them.

dont throw stones at a kid who has held that backline together for 5 years on his own.. often asked to fill roles some of our senior players wouldnt by a guy who everyone hates.. at a club going nowhere!!!

Navy Blue Horse · **Joined:** Mon Feb 28, 2005 2:39 pm **Posts:** 15848

Synbad wrote:

dont throw stones at a kid who has held that backline together for 5 years on his own.. often asked to fill roles some of our senior players wouldnt by a guy who everyone hates.. at a club going nowhere!!!

Awwww, poor Bret. Asked to play one game of footy a week for half the year and hang out with his mates the rest of the time for $200k plus a year. If he thinks that's tough, he's welcome to join the real world and see how he likes it there.

thehulk · **Joined:** Sun May 28, 2006 9:18 am **Posts:** 163

Synbad,

you are a gun mate! You are 100% right! and i am not being sarcastic.

H

Synbad · **Posted:** Sat Oct 07, 2006 1:02 pm

Navy Blue Horse wrote:

Synbad wrote:

dont throw stones at a kid who has held that backline together for 5 years on his own.. often asked to fill roles some of our senior players wouldnt by a guy who everyone hates.. at a club going nowhere!!!

Awwww, poor Bret. Asked to play one game of footy a week for half the year and hang out with his mates the rest of the time for $200k plus a year. If he thinks that's tough, he's welcome to join the real world and see how he likes it there.

Sorry mate... you might be digging holes for a living or you might be doing something else for a living.

You obviously dont get the gravity of this.

Its not about TBird.. its about an organisation that is rotting.

Its like the I Spartacus in Monty Python.. pretty soon.. it will be "im T Bird.. no im TBird.. no me and my mate are both TBird."

You can push your naive barrow as much as you like.. but the club is falling apart at the seams..

Let me say there are people organising things behind the scenes right now to get the right people together to change all this.

If it happens over the next week or so.. we will all be asked to put ink to paper if were not happy.

You too can have an opportunity to make something count if you want to.

Or you can sit back and blame T Bird for leaving the rot.

Navy Blue Horse · **Joined:** Mon Feb 28, 2005 2:39 pm **Posts:** 15848

Synbad wrote:

You too can have an opportunity to make something count if you want to.

Or you can sit back and blame T Bird for leaving the rot.

1. Bring it on
2. Imagine if every discontented player at every crap club jumped ship?

Synbad · **Posted:** Sat Oct 07, 2006 1:12 pm

Navy Blue Horse wrote:

Synbad wrote:

You too can have an opportunity to make something count if you want to.

Or you can sit back and blame T Bird for leaving the rot.

1. Bring it on
2. Imagine if every discontented player at every crap club jumped ship?

Just goes to show your level of intellect...

You obviously dont understand its a professional competition with all of its implication.
Including what the workplace provides its staff???

Cant comprehend that ???

go watch Xavier...theyre in the ammos u know...???

Were Carlton!!!@#$%&! the rest!!!

Eh???

:lol:

mjonc · **Posted:** Sat Oct 07, 2006 1:16 pm

Synbad if it was such a bad place why the hell hasn't everyone who has signed the past 2 years left like Thornton? They haven't because they have formed a bond together, they want to make Carlton successfull again. Thornton is a sook, all about himself and the money.

Do you ever see SOS complain when he was getting butchered by Lockett, Dunstall, Ablett, Carey etc. I remember SOS coming pretty close to the brownlow at Thorntons age, and we were shit then as well. Who did SOS have to support him? David Kernahan, Ian Aitken? Ever heard Brian Harris having a sook when the Bulldogs were struggling?Same situation, still is. Harris has no support apart from Chris Grant who is the Lance Whitnall of the Bulldogs.

Thornton if he worth the $300k he wants should never winge about playing on the opposition best forwards.

Thornton, Fisher at odds (Fisher & Thornton re-signed)

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