MB, do you have a genuine source? Give us more goss....

Definitely, gerry, I'm with you 100%.

Why would Thornton refuse to meet Pagan (and presumably other Club officials) to talk further? Childish, for mine. If he wants to walk around life with his head up his own arse, believing the hype others are telling him about his worth, then it's going to hurt only him in the long run.

If that's his attitude, we're better off without him.

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And so while others miserably pledge themselves to the pursuit of ambition and brief power, I will be stretched out in the shade, singing.

If I was the President of the Club, I would be on the blower to BT.

Not so much to "save him", but more to fully understand what has happened and why he really wants to leave.

The key is to understand what really has gone on, so issues under the control of the club can be adressed. On the other hand, BT might just be a prick and/or Hawthorn has promised him 75 virgins..

Nathan Brown?
Obviously you're not talking about the 30 year old Melbourne one who cant get a senior game?

(Though nothing surprises me)

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Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.

Nathan Brown the twin brother of Mitchell Brown... Stellar draft camp..KP Backman.... No guy that runs around like a headless chook from melbourne thank you very much.
Whilst i'll be the first to concede losing T-Bird is definetly not what we were wishing....It is not as bad as most think... It realistlically should open up 1 very high if not 2 extra picks come draft day. Now as long as Carlton dont lose there cool.. We will continue to take Gibbs at 1 rather than Hansen who is the obvious candidate to fill the gaps in the backline..or the burger to fill the ruck deficiencies...and then say we get 2 more picks from the 15- 25/30 range we use 17 for another running type (Connors type) 19 on a tough midfielder than the highest pick we receive for T-bird we use on the best available Key defender at around 15 then with the second pick 25-30 range Welcome Mr Nathan Brown.

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Loooook OUT!

My thoughts exactly.

I'm sick to death of players having problems with this club. Thornton is a Blue Boy through and through and i'm guessing his decission is cutting him up inside, but it's one he just has to make.

This has gone to far.

Any push to overthrow this board & the coach has my full & unlimited support.

Last year, if was Campo, Lappin & Fev.
This year, it's Bret Thornton & Jordan Russell.
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in 2009 it WILL be Marc Murphy & Josh Kennedy, unless the trend is changed!

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"We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit"
- Aristotle

Gerry Atric...let me just cover myself here....As long as he's around for the pick we believe we will take him at...He's as good as a BLue... I mean if another team deems him a top 10 pick then obviously he wont be at the blues...however strong indications make it seem likely we'll snatch him up..however Draft day is a funny day and you just never no what could happen..

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Loooook OUT!

So, you're saying we're interested in Brown if he's available at the appropriate pick.

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Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.

Hawthorn are a better run club than Carlton. Their facilities are good, their administration has balls, their player group seems to be tight-knit and they embrace new ideas and seem to be going places.

It would seem Clarkson has reasonable man management skills; the problem that the players seem to have with Denis (reading between the lines of what some posters have said) is that he's too inflexible, get on his bad side and he won't give you another chance unless he wants to. No matter how hard you try, if you get on his bad side, you're GAWN.

Why do you think young players feel like they can't make a mistake when they get out there for the 5 minutes they're allowed? Cos they get dragged if they make a mistake. When Simmo had his 3rd donut game, he was (I can't remember the poster who posted this - but it was on here) that he was *this* close to being traded or delisted. The quote went something like this "if his hand's not broken, he's gone" - turned out his hand was broken.

Why were so many players playing injured this year? Stevens with OP, Bentick with that shoulder, last year we had Fev play with that groin - if Pagan had any sense, he would have dropped Fev and told him to get himself back into shape. It's appalling.

Thornton is a passionate person. You can't deny that. He may be selfish on the field, that might translate to off-field selfishness. Who knows? I've never met him. However, because he's so passionate, he sees his teammates go through all this, it's little wonder that he has issues with the coach.

How much confidence does Denis give the players? SFA. Why do the kids play completely differently to when they burn up in the VFL? Why are their styles of play completely different? Because Denis has no faith in them. It's amazing what an injection of faith from a coach will give you; Denis only has faith in those drafted before 20.

All the Pagan apologists seem to want to absolve him with any blame here, preferring to place it on Thornton. My question is this. If we start 1-6 or something next year, what are you going to say?

What happens when Setanta gets towelled up (as he inevitably will at some point - even SOS did)? You'll all be saying - I wish we had Thornton who could at least have given us another option. Instead we're going to throw Paul Bower, Setanta O'hAilpin and Adam Hartlett into the deep end with no support other than a loose man in defence named Lance Whitnall. We will have fewer options with Thornton gone and if you think losing him is good, then you'd better think again, particularly when Hawthorn doesn't blink and doesn't offer pick 6 making us lose Thornton for nothing.

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"A good composer does not initiate. He steals."

- Igor Stravinsky

Yep Blue Vain it seems that way to me...

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Loooook OUT!

Can I just say that although I am disappointed to lose Bret in this way that in the end it is just footy. Maybe he wants to earn more, maybe he don't like the coach, maybe he don't like some of his team-mates, maybe he don't like to be left hung out to dry as the lone hand in a beseiged backline every week (although he should have a chat to Zac Dawson on that one). He has been at the Blues for 4-5 seasons now and experienced the feeling of playing on a winning team on an average of about 5 times a year.

Not the stuff of a stellar football career is it? So whatever the reasons he wants to leave it's just footy, and he won't be the first footballer to jump ship for more cash, and he won't be the last - and we won't be the only club to have this happen.

IN FACT - I am sure (at least I hope very strongly) that we have people currently out there white-anting other clubs' star performers with offers of blue skies ahead, plenty of opportunities for starring roles and (now Kouta's on less than a Mill) plenty of cash for the right player. AND it all comes packaged with the No 1 PSD pick so we don't necessarily need to trade.

So although I share in the disappointment I wonder if some of us are being a little hypocritical when we'd be just as happy if our club was luring someone else's star player over....

If he wants out I can accept that.

Hawthorn will not win a flag anyway whilst he is playing - their 15th-20th best players are duds.

What I will not accept is if Carlton don't get any high picks in return for him.


If he has any conscience at all he will do all possible to ensure that Carlton gets something in return for him wanting out. After all - we developed him. (Nominating for the pre-season draft is not an option)


If he doesn't want to assist Carlton- he may have trouble walking down the street.

What a peculiar thread...............!


kindest regards tommi

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that'siti'mnotchangingthistagain......!

Clem I wish Thornton wanted to stay and I want him there next year, but he doesn't. I don't reckon Pagan is great and I am not an apologist for him, but neither do I see him as the anti Christ. If we are 1-6 next year I'll say it is just what we expected. Great draft picks, #1 in PSD to lure a gun young Hawk, and Fraser Brown's money will pay Pagan out for his final year. FAct is Thornton is a player Pagan has shown great confidence in, the club has invested hugely in. Also everyone's favourite whipping boy Whitnall stayed even tho there was real interest from Melbourne. Fev stayed and loves DP. Betts and Fisher signed up with no arguement. I believe Thornton's defection is to do with money and ego. His manager will float any story that makes his move seem justified. We will miss him as a player but if we get #6 and use it on a gun that's fine. Thornton is not going to have an easy time as a big money player at a new club under a ruthless coach. He needs to consider the full implications of walking out on a club that has given him a chance. In the Hun today one of his 'reasons' is that he lives in Mt Waverley and he will be closer to training - is that clutching at straws or what.

Clubs survive on the loyalty of supporters, that's where his pay packet has come form over the last five years, he would do well to at least publcily acknowledge that.

I wish Pagan's contract had ended this year. I didn't want him in the first place, but he is laso not stupid and has been very successful. I can't believe he is totally hopeless at dealing with players or incapable of communication with them. And I think we had the season I expected - overall improvement of a substandard list. Hawthorn lead us in a few areas at present, but they are still not far ahead of us on the field and if they poach other club's players they may set a precedent that bites them.

He just spent time with a number of his team mates overseas. Not sure whether anyone in the leadership group was there though.

Look gerry, that's a fair argument, but I'm just afraid that this will be the start of something worse, that we'll end up with our star players leaving because of the way their teammates have been treated.

As for the Mt Waverley thing, I think that's just pure media crap - as if that would be an overriding factor.

My main gripe is that I don't think we'd be able to lure a gun young Hawk next year anyway because who wants to come to Carlton? That's the main problem; who wants to come to Carlton if no one wants to stay at Carlton? That's the problem we face and the more we try to paper over the cracks and say that player X left for the money, then we're not addressing the real issue here.

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"A good composer does not initiate. He steals."

- Igor Stravinsky

Libba is no fan of Pagan.

He has said that the players are drained of creativity by a coach that is a control freak.

Coming from a person close to the coach, this indicates that Carlton is an unattractive place for players to be right now.

The fact that Thornton took a fair bit of time and soul searching to arrive at his descision and didnt just make a quick choice indicates that there were plenty of competing factors that would sway him towards and away from Carlton.

If Pagan had been sacked, one big reason for Bret to leave would have suddenly dissapeared..

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My Blue Heaven

And if your aunty had a set of nuts she would be your uncle.

Big deal, pagan is here, bret will leave, no bitching and moaning is going to change the scenario.

If you are that upset about it, form a ticket and run for the board. Until then continue to support the club and if thornton wants to leave, Ta Ta Bret, good luck at the Hawks.

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Back like a raging case of pubic lice

Pretty much how I see Denis these days.

All of the faults in the Club are being sheeted home at his feet. And fair enough, to a certain extent - the buck stops with him. But while all the criticism is aimed at him, he also doesn't get any credit for any development which is happening.

You can't have it both ways. If there is improvement happening - and there is without doubt. Slower than we'd all like, but it is happening - Pagan must be able to take some credit for that, as much as he takes the blame for any bad things which are happening.

I would suggest that the story is far more complex than anyone here could possibly know, and we're all - me included - are merely speculating as to the truth behind the media stories and anger.

_________________
And so while others miserably pledge themselves to the pursuit of ambition and brief power, I will be stretched out in the shade, singing.