There's no way you know that statement is true.

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And so while others miserably pledge themselves to the pursuit of ambition and brief power, I will be stretched out in the shade, singing.

unfortunately for them they all went to clubs that are/were on the slide down. they were so desperate to leave they werent fussy about which club as long as it was out of carlton.

Excellent point, hulk.

Where's the team unity? Where are the players trying to keep the team together? Or is their end of year trip (or Dancing With The Stars) more important than your teammates?

I also agree with mjonc.

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And so while others miserably pledge themselves to the pursuit of ambition and brief power, I will be stretched out in the shade, singing.

the most fustrating part of not only losing thornton, but all the issues regarding carlton is that we the supporters seem to only give a f**k about the navy blue.

Anyone suggesting we won't miss Thornton has got rocks in their head. He routinely took on the best key forward of the opposition, and more importantly took the pacier big ones given Whitnall's deficiencies. Sure Walker had his fair share of prime forwards too..

Some opponents from 2006 included Hall (2nd game), Pavlich, Robertson...

but that's not the issue. The issue is what we get for him. Compare the trade.

Yes there are underlying issues of Club, success, lack thereof, Coach, administrative hassles...but Thornton is probably the most competitive blue out there so I dont really buy that that was the main reason. I think he's been worded up and will go. Now the challenge is to extract something from it.

Will be interesting to see the defence in 2007 with Setanta, Bower, Hartlett, Flint and Saddington accompanied by Whitnall and see how they go. Very inexperienced, and I was hoping to see Whitnall slide forward more often, but there will be opportunities galore for anyone who can put their hand up.

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So which way do you read the statement in the Age that says he refused to talk to Pagan re: coming back?

If he liked the coach, he'd stay wouldn't he once Carlton offered roughly the same amount of money?

That's the question that mjonc and others don't seem to have an answer to.

*Carlton made a 2nd offer roughly the same as Hawthorn, why didn't Bret take it???*

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"A good composer does not initiate. He steals."

- Igor Stravinsky

Fraser Brown said it too.

Meh, so he goes. I'll be pissed off for a while, but I'll get over it when Leroy Jetta or whoever wears number 32 for 250 games over the next 10 years.

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Cer 'ch 'n alluog Blues

If we think that T-Bird leaving has nothing to do with DP then we are kidding ourselves. What will it take for us as a club to realise that? When someone like Kennedy leaves after 2 years? Who knows it might happen -it's not something that Carlton has had to worry about in the past.

The key is whether this club and DP are able to recognise that there is a problem with the feeling amongst the players and do something about it! Give them a say in who is recruited in the PSD or who is recruited as an assistant. It's not just about players wanting to leave - it's also about players wanting to come to Carlton. When did we last hear that a player wants out to join Carlton??

Maybe they have contacted him...we don't know.

Don't assume because its not in the paper that it hasnt happened.

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"The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent." Qui-Gon Jinn 15-05-2005

"there’s more chance of me becoming the full forward for the [Western Bulldogs] than there is of any change in the Labor Party." Julia Gillard 18-05-2010

I take your point, Clem, but unless you're Thornton, there's no-one here who can categorically say that Thornton would have stayed if Pagan had have gone.

You have to look past any anti-Pagan feelings you may have.

Thornton was obviously unhappy. His demeanour over the last 2 seasons shows this. But no one person here can categorically state that it came down to a case of "either Denis goes or I do". And if he did say something like that, who is he to demand that of the entire Club anyway?

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And so while others miserably pledge themselves to the pursuit of ambition and brief power, I will be stretched out in the shade, singing.

Thornton might hate his team-mates because they don't play dungeons and dragons with him!!!

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Tempering my anger and frustration on the Thornton issue is the fact that, quite frankly, I don't blame him.

If we're sitting here in constant bewilderment at how inept the club appears to be in every which way, how must it look and feel for those who work there daily?

Can't be a happy, positive work environment, and I think most of us would leave our jobs in similar circumstances if a rival, with potentially greener grass, made a better offer and showed you more love in the process.

Two more years of same-same under Pagan is probably not the most attractive proposition for several of our players, and this bloke has an opportunity to do something about it. Good luck to him.

Now, we're kidding ourselves with this first round pick demand, but it's a typical opening gambit. Be prepared for the club to use this opportunity to be 'strong' (nee stubborn) and lose him for nothing...

You reckon he's going to Hawthorn because that nasty little sniper Clarkson is going to sit on the couch with him on Friday nights and watch re-runs of Beaches do you Clem?

I would suggest he doesn't want to talk to Pagan because Hawthorn don't want him to in case he changes his mind and because he doesn't want to explain the justification of walking out on the club that took him on as a rookie and developed him to the point where he can command a ridiculous salary. He is a good player, excellent ball handler, bit mid sized but we will miss him. But he also was never a team player, he always looked to blame a team mate if his opponent got the ball, always expected coverage from him team mates and never covered for them. Anyone ever seen him leaving his man to try and help someone else. he was very self focussed and that may explain why he is going to a club that is telling him how great he is. I wish he was a big enough person to see what effect his defection has on a club in serious trouble that helped make him what he is. But he's not so lets really play hardball. Let him go to the PSD and get picked up by the Bombers and he can continue his career at the bottom and we can go after every uncontracted HAwthorn player next year.


I'm not a great rap for Pagan either but he'd be no nastier than Clarkson. Thornton has played under DP for 4 years, has he improved over this time? If he has it's all his doing I guess and no credit to the cluib or any coaches. He better do well at Hawthorn because there will be a lot of people there unhappyu about the money he's getting if he doesn't star.

Very dissapointed that Thornton wants out.

The only real positive is that it's happening while we're on the bottom of the ladder (so if no acceptable trade is offered, we can pick him up again in the PSD) and in a year when 1st and 2nd round draft picks are going to be like gold.

Negative: Lose our main defender
Positive: More draft picks in the super draft....

I guess everyone will have a differing opinion as to whether or not the positve outweighs the negatives...

Nathan Brown( not the tigers one) a dead set certainty to join the Blues....Blues to make a massive pitch at Polak.....? What an interesting couple of weeks we have ahead

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Loooook OUT!

John Blakey won a GF or two. Peter Bell goes alright. Wayne Schwass went okay and he's one that probably did leave because of Denis. Not sure about the other two.

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Not to mention Wayne Carey. Glen Archer. Anthony Stevens. Shannon Grant. John Longmire. Leigh Colbert. etc, etc.

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And so while others miserably pledge themselves to the pursuit of ambition and brief power, I will be stretched out in the shade, singing.

Not sure if I'm with you here CB. Johnny Blakely left the Roys in a swap for MCcarthy (who bombed) Blakely played in two flags at North, got over 300 games, most at North and left at age 36 to retirement- not sure if you could blame DP for that. In fact Blakely might actually thank him. Bell left gratefully to return to his old club after North had given him two flags and North won handsomely on the Schwatter deal - got a Norm Smith/ B&f young player in GRant. Pagan was unhappy with Schwassy for a needless costly finals suspension. Reasonable to be, may have cost a flag. I think the arguement re Pagan and the players needs some substance. I'm not rapt in Pagan, but quality people like Archer etc are. Thornton was used as a key player by Pagan. Pagan made a real fuss of him when he was injured in the Wiz GF. Perhaps Bret's ego has been stroked by the HAwks, maybe 'Side Show Bob' Kennett did a dance for him in his carny jacket, who knows. I think Bret is laying low because the Hawks don't want him persuaded by CArlton people. Players don't usually win if they walk out for money. Thornton's defection is really hurting Carlton. He needs to face up to that and explain himself to the Carlton supporters who have paid his wage and development costs for 5 years why he is walking out. But he is hiding away like a gutless selfish rat. I'd rather lose him to Essendon* for nothing than give him away for less than #6. Hawthorn are rating him higher than all their other young guns except Hodge. If they rate him that highly they can deal. We musn't blink. We have #1 pick on PSD. Short term pain. long term gain.