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Thornton, Fisher at odds (Fisher & Thornton re-signed)

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Carlton God

Post subject:

Posted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 7:32 pm

Ken Hands

Joined: Tue Jun 07, 2005 10:39 pm
Posts: 487

Why have you started a new thread on this?

There's already a 50 page thread on Thornton leaving and about 200000000000000000000 on how pathetic the CFC is.

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blueman

Post subject:

Posted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 7:36 pm

Rod Ashman

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 6:28 pm
Posts: 2220

As I stated in another thread, Thornton's wish to leave is due to the Pagan factor.

Among other things, From what I understand, Denis is a bit of a control freak that breaks players down and them builds them up - rather like training in the army does to young recruits.

These methods are still used in the army, but not so much in football.

The fact that Denis uses them means that there are bound to be a number of players that have significant problems with it.

This is why a new coach would do wonders for this club.

in saying this, I do think that Denis will probably have done a lot of the hard work needed to bring the club back, but at the end of the day, its a management style issue here which is damaging the club.

Thornton is a casualty of this. There are probably others too, but whether they are in a situation where they can leave, this is another question....

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Last edited by blueman on Fri Oct 06, 2006 7:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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titimus

Post subject:

Posted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 7:36 pm

Serge Silvagni

Joined: Tue Mar 08, 2005 12:06 pm
Posts: 938

blueman wrote:

Very disappointing news. This is an outcome that is due to Pagans coaching style. There are probably other players feeling the same way.

That's a pretty assuming sentence that you've thrown out there, Blueman.

I expected more from you and your legendary vision.

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CarltonClem

Post subject:

Posted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 7:37 pm

Mike Fitzpatrick

Joined: Sun Feb 27, 2005 9:26 pm
Posts: 4719
Location: Parliament House, Canberra

Carlton God wrote:

Why have you started a new thread on this?

There's already a 50 page thread on Thornton leaving and about 200000000000000000000 on how pathetic the CFC is.

If you knew how to read, the Thornton thread is about how much of a Judas he is rather than the underlying reasons behind it.

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keogh

Post subject:

Posted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 7:38 pm

Craig Bradley

Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 6:36 am
Posts: 6319

I am really sad to see him go. What would our defence be without him.

If Carlton matched the Hawks offer the its disappointing but hes gone and probably wont be coming back.Two things now spring into my head
1 Must get something good for him.Can we do that. I dont understand these rules so if he goes to Hawthorn do Hawthorn have to give us something in return.

2 Hartlett? Now is the time.

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jim

Post subject:

Posted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 7:41 pm

Wayne Johnston

Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2005 9:21 pm
Posts: 8183

-Ox- wrote:

Somehow they'll get a second rounder for Everitt, possibly with a player. They will then trade 24 and the 2nd rounder for Thornton.

May make getting Polak more imprtant if he's available. Maybe we can on-trade the pick to Freo, depending on how high it is of course.

Carlton doesn't seem to be a happy place to be at. Why do players want to leave? Think I can guess, and we kept him. Fraser, where are you?!

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titimus

Post subject:

Posted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 7:42 pm

Serge Silvagni

Joined: Tue Mar 08, 2005 12:06 pm
Posts: 938

blueman wrote:

There are probably others too, but whether they are in a situation where they can leave, this is another question....

There it is again, Blueman.

Clem, I think that you are missing the point. Posing the proposition (in a new thread no less) that 'what if it was Murphy leaving' is just plain silly.

Jump in a bean-bag and have a scotch or something mate (it is friday after all!).

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Jarusa

Post subject:

Posted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 7:44 pm

Alex Jesaulenko

Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2005 9:00 am
Posts: 23123

Clutching at straws Clem, the red mist is clouding things.

One side of the argument is just as logical as the other in this case because none of us know Thornton's reasons. It might be one thing it might be many. No-one knows.

I'm just happy the club finally has a player on the market that other clubs want when we need quality picks.

Exciting times ahead.

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GWS

Post subject:

Posted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 7:45 pm

Stephen Kernahan

Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2005 11:17 am
Posts: 18489
Location: threeohfivethree

Clearly there are problems at the club Clem. I'd say that's a given considering everything. But let's wait and see how many actually jump ship.

The thing that shits me most in this place is when anything happens it's automatically justification for everyone's preconceived ideas about everything that's right and wrong with the club. Too many agendas.

Do I want Pagan gone? Yes.

Is he responsible for this? Probably partially.

Does that excuse Thornton for piking? No.

If your scenario comes true and we have a mass exodus then you're obviously right however I don't think we need to wait that long to realise there are problems with the culture of the place at the moment. We've been at our lowest ebb over the last few years but Thornton's the first player we look like losing that I'd actually like to keep.

Who else did you want us to hold onto? Am I missing anyone?

Of course players want out. We're crap at the moment and sometimes it's hard to see when we won't be.

However that's the exact time when players of character should stand up and decide to do everything in their power to improve themselves and the club. Bret's obviously not up to that but others are and hopefully whomever we get in return for Thornton will be too.

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Slyuss

Post subject:

Posted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 7:46 pm

Laurie Kerr

Joined: Sun Oct 23, 2005 6:18 pm
Posts: 146
Location: Melbourne

Pick 6 or put him in the preseason draft.
24 is probably worth something. But carlton is such a trainwreck its worth the gamble

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kwtf_

Post subject:

Posted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 7:47 pm

Horrie Clover

Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 6:19 pm
Posts: 389
Location: carlton, vic

There's nothing to lose by giving creedence to his hypothetical, much less than if you don't.

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bondiblue

Post subject:

Posted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 7:52 pm

Alex Jesaulenko

Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:03 am
Posts: 24665
Location: Bondi Beach

Look guys, there are reasons for this outcome. Whatever they are, we don't know them yet.

I say it's money and manager. Thornton has been led in that direction.Hawks know they're onto a winner. So can we.

Other probable reasons for his decision to depart could be:

Pagan
The Club
His role in the backline
The Spoon
The facilities
The development
The factions
The feral supporters
The girlfiriend
The manager's wife
Clarkson
His best Friend

Until we know, don't speculate and don't let them (TBird & Manager) derail our resurgence and our spirit. We're Carlton.

BV's analogy may have a lot more in it than some consider. The guys gone, I'm upset, but nowhere near as upset as I was 3 hours ago. We're rebuilding and the Hawks want him to play a role for finals success; good luck to them.

Lets get our house in order. Lets appreciate the kids that we've got, and the kids we're going to get. Lets learn from this. Pick 6 looks good. Now lets trade pick 1 and get more quality picks on board. We're not playing for a premiership in 2007 or 2008. We're building for premiership teams for the 2009-15 era.

Rubbing hands.

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Bookie

Post subject:

Posted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 7:53 pm

Harry Vallence

Joined: Thu Mar 03, 2005 6:23 am
Posts: 1687
Location: Smorgyland Village North Carlton

Stevens might walk next year for the same reasons.

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mjonc

Post subject:

Posted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 7:55 pm

Wayne Johnston

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 9:34 am
Posts: 8888
Location: 8888

Also depends what the Hawks get for Everitt. If they get a first rounder I'd accept that in return for Thornton.

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jim

Post subject: Re: Why? Is two a coincidence?

Posted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 7:55 pm

Wayne Johnston

Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2005 9:21 pm
Posts: 8183

CarltonClem wrote:

Some of you in the Thornton thread are missing the point of the discussion. Carlton matched the money Hawthorn offered, but he still chose to leave. If he was money minded, he would have stayed because he has mates here.

But why did he choose to go when it's not certain he will get to the Hawks if the Hawks stuff up the trade?

Why is a young player like Bret Thornton leaving? Why is it rumoured that Jordan Russell wants out as well? If a second player leaves, is that coincidental?

A lot of you are saying that Thornton is overrated and some of you don't really care that he's moved on.

I ask you another question. What would your reaction be this time next year if it was Marc Murphy who wanted out and said he wanted a trade to Hawthorn? Marc is highly valued by the CFC, would be offered at least 200K and at this stage is worth that. If Hawthorn offered 250K and we MATCHED it but Murphy insisted on leaving - SURELY THERE IS AN UNDERLYING PROBLEM!

MarkNo3 - you say that Thornton has shown no loyalty and you've called him (amongst worse things) greedy. Well, what you think if Murphy decided to leave? Or Kennedy wanted to go back to WA? What's the problem?

HOW CAN IT BE MONEY IF WE OFFERED THE SAME AND HE STILL WANTED TO LEAVE?

Some of you have shown no logic at all; there is a deeper underlying problem amongst this.

Carlton is simply not a place that players want to stay at. Why? The Administration is poor, the coach is appalling, the training facilities are behind other clubs.

Players wanting to leave their club is quite rare; the bonding you get from playing with the same people for a long time is something you don't like losing. Usually players only leave for substantially more money or because they don't want to be there one reason or another.

The other question I pose is this. Why have so many players left the CFC since Denis got here?

If a second player decides to request a trade, will that be coincidental? Or are they greedy as well?

There's been a few that have retired, left, not on good terms with Pagan over the last 4 years. Campo last year, Thornton this year (can't see any other reason why he'd go otherwise having lost the passion to play here).

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jim

Post subject:

Posted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 7:56 pm

Wayne Johnston

Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2005 9:21 pm
Posts: 8183

Jarusa wrote:

Now there's some clouding

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Carlton God

Post subject:

Posted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 7:58 pm

Ken Hands

Joined: Tue Jun 07, 2005 10:39 pm
Posts: 487

If all the players leave at the end of 2008 there will be no CFC in 2009 :roll:

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The_Cranium

Post subject:

Posted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 8:04 pm

Mike Fitzpatrick

Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2005 11:51 am
Posts: 4544
Location: lygon street

don't know how you can stay positive bondi. the club is being run by incompetent buffoons. losing a player like bret thornton is a disgrace. he has been our best defender for 3 years. this is a guy that plenty talked abuot as a captain of the club.

if they have any brains at all they will play a very hard game when it comes to the trade. if he goes for a 2nd round pick, then we are kidding ourselves. we simply have to be seen to win in this deal.

the fact that he has gone though, speaks more about the board and culture at the club at the moment. this board needs to be removed. they are costing us players we cannot afford to lose and i promise they will be costing us members.

scary thing is that this may well just be the tip of the iceberg. yes appreciate the young players we have. appreciate them while you can...... they may not be around for long.... i wonder if fitzroy supporters appreciated a young allistair lynch, a young paul roos, a young john blakey, a young matthew primus, a young matthew broderick etc etc etc.

Last edited by The_Cranium on Fri Oct 06, 2006 8:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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blueman

Post subject:

Posted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 8:14 pm

Rod Ashman

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 6:28 pm
Posts: 2220

Actually, I am fallible and also I am unable to see detailed things, like players leaving, so these things can come as a shock to me too.

My grand vision involving Carlton is more thematic rather than detailed. I honestly dont think that this will affect the outcome greatly in the long term, but it certainly wont help.

What brings uncertainty and worry to me is my inner conviction that Pagans coaching style is one that is past its use by date and really not at all helpful to Carlton right now.

You do hope that this infection doesnt spread.

We can ill afford what experience we have to decide to leave us because of problems in this area.

Then again, maybe I am magnifying this detail too much and making it bigger than it need be.

Actally, I swim laps in the pool a lot, many thoughts bubble to the surface while doing this. Its an ideal activity for inner contemplation.

The right thoughts and the answers are usually there, often its just a matter of winkling them out. Will grab the bathers and report back later

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My Blue Heaven

Last edited by blueman on Fri Oct 06, 2006 8:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Pafloyul

Post subject:

Posted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 8:16 pm

Mike Fitzpatrick

Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 8:15 pm
Posts: 4842

Cranium; your post has avery interesting beat to it.

Last edited by Pafloyul on Fri Oct 06, 2006 8:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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