Like all the other issues discussed lately?

Foolhardy way to run a list in my opinion.

someone cant kick.. get rid of him.. someone cant this or that .. its bye bye...

The danger with that naive approach is youre expecting everyone to come in to the club and be Marc Murphy.. and if he turns the ball over.. well piss him off too..!!!!

Its weak!!!
Its apathetic!!!
Its naive!!!!

And its a soft way to run a football club because thats alot easier than doing it the way Neil Craig runs Adelaide.

No wonder the interstate teams are MILES ahead of us...



Fisher has a deficiency...

Davey had deficiencies before he was drafted...still does...

Fisher has positives.

Davey had positives too...

The difference is development!!!



Cant believe some people....

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i just dont think losing these two will be the end of the earth.

The only thing i am annoyed about is that we have again let it be known public...

as long as we get something in return and arent ripped off.....then so be it...thus is the nature of AFL....

disappointed to lose t-bird but who knows what we might get...who knows what other clubs may be willing to give up.

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Back like a raging case of pubic lice

No we would still be in there fighting for the premiership because of our depth...

we dont need em...

were smart... the other clubs are dumb for wanting them...

plus we can sign Kouta and Lance up for more lengthy and lucrative contracts...

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well inside man who knows everything about carlton....we arent really up there fighting for a flag with them are we???

things change, maybe change for the better, you are so willing to get rid of pagan for change, well why not extend the change...

the whole club needs to change.

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Back like a raging case of pubic lice

extend it to 2 x 22 year olds????

so we wipe out another generation of picks..???

ok so now we lose the Livo generation and the one after Livo / Davies.. and get rid of Waite too.. cos he cant kick.. and does @#$%&! all...

Then the Fisher and Simmo.. cos Simmo isnt signed either... probably offer him around 150k...

Then we can get rid of Walker (cant kick) Bentick too slow...


Ok were down to the 19 year olds....


Oh yes and Lance and Kouta....



Were "extending change....."


Are you for real??

Do you really think things through or do they just pop out???

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MAte, I think it was tongue in cheek.

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Writer for SuperCoach Paige www.scpaige.com.au
Twitter - @johnfeeney24

Everyone will please conduct their arguments without being condescending towards those they are arguing with.

If you can't mange this, then the moderating team at TC will ask you to go and play at Big Footy...in the nicest possible way of course.

de ja vu!!!!!!

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Love Cricket? Love me

Were they a 70's disco band?

You got it.

Such as , if you have Smorgon in the gun, it doesn't necesssarily matter what he does or says, you can make it look bad if you assume an appropriate perspective.

As much as I like Brad Fisher, he is tradeable at the right price IMO. Unless his kicking improves, then he is a liability. He marks incredibly for a guy with his body shape but it's not good spraying the kick once you take the mark, it's deflating.

Thornton - I don't believe some of you. If you think we're overrating our list, then you need to take some reality pills. Not for one minute am I suggesting that he be given a 4 year contract etc., but if you were to value a player's contribution to the club, then Thornton is up there. 7th in the B&F, first choice FB. Because of the salary cap, you unfortunately have to pay players a certain amount - Thornton's % of the pie should be higher.

And I'm not saying pay Fisher the same as TBird. Fisher should be around 200K and should only be for 2 years.

I think a lot of emotion has been spent in this debate. The issues IMO are the following:

1) Why are we offering TBird 210K when we signed Waite for 700K over 3 years?

2) Why are these players' managers going to the media? Are they in the anti-Pagan camp and trying to look for interest from other clubs?

3) What would other clubs give for TBird and/or Fish? Would it be enough for us to consider trading them?

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"A good composer does not initiate. He steals."

- Igor Stravinsky

So you pay a guy according to where he was drafted?

So Davey should get $120K
Goddard should be on 500K
Livingston should be on 300K...

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"A good composer does not initiate. He steals."

- Igor Stravinsky

I can't believe some of the comments on here about Thornton. This is a guy who has had to play the hardest role in the shittest team of the competition. Can anyone imagine what it would be like to be Thornton turning up week after week knowing he is going to see 20 odd goals sailing over his head???

Guys like Thornton are the backbone to a team. You don't win premierships without them - you need the players that come in and do their job week after week, no fanfare, no fuss, they just get the job done. Thornton has shown enough through adversity to indicate that he will fall into this category. At 22 years of age and just on 100 games he is a must keep.

And in my opinion, a little sweetener should be thrown in on top as recognition for performing the hardest job in the worst team over the last five years. Because god knows I wouldn't blame the guy if he decided he'd had enough and wanted to go elsewhere. And make no mistake, we would be the poorer for it

that works out to be 233k/year - not that far off the 210k initial offer to thornton. Think its a reasonable starting position if the club is seeking to sign thornton for around 250k/year.

If Fev had only played well for half a season over the past two years many of you would be calling for a trade ... but Thornton is being spoken of as some sort of saviour.

I'd hate to see him go, but some sort of perspective is needed. His last 10 weeks have been brilliant but 2005 was a waste with his injury and the first half of 2006 was very ordinary.

I thought his 2006 in general was pretty good all things considered, but you're right in saying that his second half of the season was great.

I think you need to look at a player like Thornton's importance in this Carlton side more than how he actually compares with the best defenders in the game. He is vital for us and is OUR best defender at the moment which is what matters. He deserves a medal in many ways for the jobs he has done since he came into the side in 2002. I think that he deserves more than a 210k 2-year deal but what intrigues me more than the money is the fact that the club apparently is only offering him the two years. I just hope this can be resolved and Thornton stays with us.

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Formerly Blues-Back2003.

Let me start this post by re-assuring everyone that for not one second am i anti thornton or anti fisher. Both are good young talents, who, in an ideal world, we would keep on our list....but...

Let me start with T-Bird. Like i said, i am not anti Thornton, if you actually check back i was pushing for his inclusion in the captaincy threads this time last year...anyway, to my point...
Bret Thornton, from day one, has been forced to play on the number one forward from every team in the AFL. From Matthew Lloyd to Alistair Lynch to David Neitz to Barry Hall to Matthew Richardson. Now T-Birds record against at least one of these players is in his favour, but in his defence, he has NEVER had the body or the tools required to hold down the full back position. Bret Thornton is a running, rebounding half back flanker who, due to his size and a lack of options was unwittingly thrust into the worst defense in the league. He has done well in a backline that is constantly under a barrage of attack, and although we have copped some mighty floggings and he has played in very few winning teams, every week he gives 110%. HOWEVER...i do believe that Bret Thornton is not the defensive giant that he is being made out to be...

Playing as the second defender in a team with a recognised full back such as Brian Harris or Darren Glass or Leo Barry or Matthew Scarlett, T-Bird would excel. He would be able to take 2nd, perhaps 3rd string forward and would be able to run off and be a very creative play maker.

My point is, if it is Carlton Football Clubs plan to keep Bret Thornton at full back for the rest of his career then i dont think he will be at Carlton Football Club next year.

From what i have seen and heard, if he can get his body right, Carlton have a lot of hope resting on one Adam Hartlett. Manfred the Mammoth (hartlett) is more than capable of fulfilling the role that Bret Thornton is currently playing within the Carlton defence. Just look at Carltons only wizard cup game this year. Sure it was only Kent Kingsley but Kent kicked over 5 goals from memory on t-bird in two quarters while he managed only two on manfred.

Now if Bret was to play alongside Mafred and Hartlett was given the number one defender, which, based on what i have seen so far, he is capable of, then we would have a formiddable defence, but is that what the match committee and coach have planned?

So should we re-sign T-Bird? By all means.
Would we miss him if he left? It all depends on Hartlett/ or the draft-trade period.

now onto the fish....

Again i am not anti-fisher but the fish has let me down. I was full of hope for Fish and thought he would be the next great forward at Carlton...then the dreaded knee injury. Since his return, something has been a little off. Sure he is an amazing mark, he has reasonably good speed, but oh my god, his kicking....
And it isnt just his kicking....look at our forward line at the moment and in the future..
we have: Fevola, Kennedy, Waite, Deluca and potentially Whitnall, are we in desperate need of a tall marking foward??? As i said, i am not Anti-fish and think in a team like Brisbane, he could really dominate, but i'm just not sure where he fits in our forward line structure. A couple of times this year i have seen him look very tired on the field and just like his heart wasnt in it.
Fish is one of those players, a lot like Waite, where you have seen a glimpse of what they are capable of but they frustrate the hell out fo you because you HAVE seen what they are capable of but they dont live up to it. I want more from Fish, i want him sailing across packs on the 50meter line and taking down a huge grab. i want him lining up for goal and not having to cringe, and i know he isnt the only one who is guilty of it, but unfortunately for Fish, he is the one who is out of contract!
So for Fish...

Should we resign the fish?-probably
Will we miss him if he goes?-i dont think so
Will we get something good from a trade?-certainly. Trade to geelong and ask for Joel Corey. Or an early 2nd round draft pick.

So thats what i meant.....

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Back like a raging case of pubic lice

Everyone talks Hartlett. He must deliver in 2007. Lets hope he has a good run with injuries.

the club has a budget, the reality of the situation is that we may not be able to keep some players. unfortunately, good reliable players like Thornton are playing alongside players that are playing on inflated contracts because of poor management decisions in the past and that must be hard for their egos, but tough. It should only be temporary as the club actually gets serious about contracts for a change.

The club has to work out the value of its players and stick to it. Of course like every negotiation there should be room to move, but the days of ransome are over. we're not the only club in that situation.

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