I would have thought thats the point which I've made before Jim.

http://www.talkingcarlton.com/phpBB2/vi ... c&start=15

Our list management pre and post Pagan has contributed far more to our problems than the 02/03 draft.

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Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.

Read it again ... we did ok with what we had to work with

These 5 clubs who supposedly did better than us (if we take that as fact) started off in a much better position which is why they are not winning spoons. Isolating our recruiting to only the last 3 years is a simplistic analysis. "Doing ok" with our recruting was never going to be good enough - am i happy with the result ... no. Do i think the coach is solely to blame and his demise will change things ... no. Thats my opinion.

It was the state of our list before the penalties (wooden spoon under Brittain) PLUS the effect of the penalties which has equalled more spoons.

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In WADA we trust

I would have thought that is my point exactly.
Consistently blaming 2 years drafts is simplistic!
Especially a draft which probably net us 2 of this years top 3 in the B&F and last years runner up!

Thank you. You made my point far better than I did.

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Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.

So lets look at the players that are stars, good ordinary players, young players to develop and players to delist.

Its primitive analysis but its gives a bit of an idea of where we realy are at.

Senior List :

Bannister - at best a top up player
Bentick - developing
Betts- developing
Blackwell - developing
Bower - developing
Bryan - developing
Carrazo - Developing
Chambers - Delist
Davies - Delist
Deluca - developing
Edwards - developing
Fevola - star
Fisher - developing
French - retired
Hartlett - developing
Houlihan - good ordinary player
Kennedy - developing
Koutafides - faded star in last year
Lappin - fading star in final years
Livingston - delist
Longmiur - Delist
Mc Grath - top up player
Mc Claren - developing
Murphy - developing but future star
S O hAilpin - developing
Prendergast - Delist
Raso - Developing
Russell - Developing
Saddington - good ordinary player
Scotland - good player (12th in Herald Sun ranking of top 100)
Simpson - developing - future star player
Sporn - Delist
Stevens - Very good player
Teague - Delist
Thornton - developing
Waite - Developing - possible future star
Walker - developing - future star
Whitnall - very good player
Wiggins - Good ordinary player

Rookies

Batson - Delist
Flint - another year
Jackson - promote
A O hAilpin - Promote
Smith - Promote

so we have

Rookies :

1 delist
3 to promote
1 for another year

so we get maybe 4 new rookies for 2007.

Senior List


20 players still in development phase
1 retirement
7 to delist
Only 1 real star player in Fevola
5 good to very good established senior players
2 established players near the end of their careers.

so Id say the reason we have a 'bad list 'is mainly because it is young and still developing. Its actually a long way from having 15 or 20 broken down, old 'has been' players that need to be chopped - like in 2002.

Also with 8 senior retirements/delists \(less 3 promotions from rookies = 5 new senior players plus 4 new rookies - we get a net changover of 9 players - or around 25% of our senior list.

Feel free to comment/critisize etc...

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My Blue Heaven

I posted this elsewhere, but i'm thinking it may be better suited here.

I am a firm beliver that while our list needs work, it's not half as bad as the Media, the football club, it's supporters & Denis Pagan make it out to be.

I still believe that any of the other 15 coaches out there would kill for a forward line of Fev/Whitnall/Waite!

Sadly,...........................I think Pagan will stay.

But, even more upsetting is that i think..............

Mitchell will go.
Sticks may go.
& Carlton continues to flood and we head further down this hole that we just cannot seem to get out of.

I was not at all happy with the way Carlton played this year - thought it was some of the worst football i have ever seen and i feel sorry for a few of the players actually.

A CHANGE IS NEEDED! - But i just don't see it happening, unfortunatly.

I am not a Pagan fan in any way, but if he is to stay then there better damn well be some change in the way we play our football. I expect a hell of alot more from somebody who's getting paid $600k+ per year!

Our players MUST take some of the blame, and i think they do take their fair share (and i honestly believe that our list is not the worst in the leauge!), but i cannot see the players saying to each other when we're 10 goals down "Let's all push forward.............we'll just flood em!"

A few matches that i have put myself through the pain of watching more than once this year are

St Kilda match (when only 4 goals were scored)
2nd half of Collingwood match (first one)
Sydney match (Rnd 22)

These matches are a clear indication that Pagan is either
a) Lost and Doesn't have a clue.
b) Needs some assistants with a new age feel for the game and can bring better ideas to the table.
c) Knows what he is doing, but just plain sucks at it!

If it's either a) or c) then he just has to go.

But if it's b) then Fine................leave him on and change assistants.

BUT THE JUST HAS TO BE CHANGES TO THE COACHING STAFF! THERE MUST BE OR ANOTHER PATHETIC YEAR WILL BE OUR FATE!

Last year, nothing was done. This year, we suffered the consequences. If you fail to prepare, Prepare To Fail!

in the 4 years that we have been at the bottom of the ladder, our neighbours have been the likes of Collingwood/Richmond/Bulldogs/Hawthorn
Where are they now?

2 of them are playing September footy.
1 of them just missed out (but always misses out anyway)
and the other had a real up & down season but has shown MASSIVE improvement and has won their last 4 in a row!

Something must be done..............................AND SOMETHING BETTER BE DONE!

If Pagan is to go:-

Coach
- Barry Mitchell (i'm a massive fan)

Assistants
- Terry Daniher (think he's capable of bringing some good ideas to a forward line of Fevola/Whitnall/Waite/Betts/Kennedy)
- Brett Ratten (would actually like to see him as Bullants coach too!)
- SOS (see what he's got)
- Dean (i can't be the only one who believes this guy is coaching material?)

If Pagan stays:-

Coach
- Denis Pagan

Assistants
- doesn't matter really..............it seems to be his way is the only way so who cares who is brought in.

_________________
"We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit"
- Aristotle

If PAGAN GOES............... FEVOLA Also Goes


I dont mean literally goes, but its a concern that if Pagan goes, Fevola will drop off and go back to his old ineffective ways....the one positive pagan has been able to achieve is Turn Fevola from a wasted Talent into a Super Star.... But Brendan still has those mood swings, and if too many changes are done at Carlton, he might just walk out too.....

which clubs fared worse?

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

some may say that the list is the responsiblity of the senior coach, so coach for me.

in 4 years he hasn't improved our standing at all

Sad as that may seem, if Fev reverts back to his old ways because of a change of coach, then we don't need him anyway.

I love the bloke, but I reckon keeping a coach on the basis of one player - albeit a very good one - going is part of the thinking that has got us here.

We need a coach who coaches the entire team, gets the best out of everyone. As brilliant as Fev has been this year in kicking 80 odd, we still finished bottom.

I reckon Fev isn't turning back, and it's not down to Denis alone - he actually gives more credit to his wife Alex and step daughter Mia. So good on him.

That cannot be the basis for any decision.

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Congratulations CK95

To wolfs article on this forum, my congratulations well done,
now heres a person that knows his footy, summed it up perfectly, Everyone should read this very articulate, and knowledgable insight on where carlton are at the moment...

couldnt agree more, Pagan has run his race. too many repetitive excuses over 4 years

Its time for a new young coach..

my pick would most definitely be Mark Harvey, its no coincidence on how Freemantle are travelling at the minute

if not available, would take a chance on Guy Mckenna, has had a good grounding at Collingwood. could be of the same Ilk as woosha, who should never have been let go in the firts place and should have given the senior job a few years back..

But all on the proviso that the greats like B Ratten, P Dean, S silvagni , Bradles come back in some capacity either as Assistant or skills coaches

To wolfs article on this forum, my congratulations well done,
now heres a person that knows his footy, summed it up perfectly, Everyone should read this very articulate, and knowledgable insight on where carlton are at the moment...

couldnt agree more, Pagan has run his race. too many repetitive excuses over 4 years

Its time for a new young coach..

my pick would most definitely be Mark Harvey, its no coincidence on how Freemantle are travelling at the minute

if not available, would take a chance on Guy Mckenna, has had a good grounding at Collingwood. could be of the same Ilk as woosha, who should never have been let go in the firts place and should have given the senior job a few years back..

But all on the proviso that the greats like B Ratten, P Dean, S silvagni , Bradles come back in some capacity either as Assistant or skills coaches

Thanks Frank well looks like a lot happened this arvo and he has been re-appointed with strings attached now.

Brisbane has impressed me this year in regards to the way they have played and how they have brought there kids in .. yes injuries have forced them to bring in the kids but it has been of great benefit to them

If you look at the kids and where they had been picked and how much game time they have had put into them

3 Rising star nominations
Debut Year Games played in 2006
* PAsk -debut 2006 - Not sure where drafted - 8 games played - Debut Year
* Patfull - No #56 2005 Draft - 15 games played - Debut Year
* Stiller - Rookie Elevation - 13 Games - Debut Year
* Riscitelli - No 61 2003 Draft - 18 Games played - Rising star nomination
* Jason Roe - Rookie Elevation - 15 games Played - debut Year
* Wyde Mills - No #25 2005 Draft - 4 games played - Debut year
* Ryan Hooper - No #41 2005 Draft - 11 games played - Debut Year
* Scott Harding - Rookie Draft 2004 - 14 Games - debut Year
There are a few others mixed in there but most had reasonable game time and given oppertunity
Most of these kids i had never heard of or didnt even know there where no high draft picks in that lot

I watched the lions a bit and yep they got beaten but they looked very promising and will bounce back when they get some of the there senior experience back in

Port another - had 4 Rising star nominations and played kids to get game time into them and will reap the benefit

BLues
1 Rising start Nomination in Murphy which was expected but the oppertunity given and how we played showed that how we where developing was not on par with other clubs who tried and gave oppertunity to there kids better.

Debut Year Games played in 2006
*Blackwell - F/s 2004 - Debut 2006 - 12 games in 2006 - Debut AFL
*Bower - Pick 20 2005 Draft - 2 Games 2006 - Debut AFL
* Jake Ewards - Pick 36 2005 Draft - no games 2006 - hasnt debut
* Hartlett - Pick 25 2004 Draft - No games 2006 - Debut 2005
* JK - Pick 4 2005 Draft - 9 games 2006 - debut 2006
* Marc Murph - Pick 1 2005 Draft - 13 Games 2005 - debut 2006
* Santanta - Rookie International 2003 - 11 games 2006 - Debut 2005
* Russell - pick 9 2004 - 10 games 2006 - debut 2006
* Jackson - Rookie Elevation - 1 game Debut 2006
* Smith - rookie elevation 2 game 2006 debut

To me this is a poor reflection on a coach pushing youth and developing a list the above barring injury should have had more oppertunities
i also believe that the handling the players and having them play senior football but getting limited game time dosnt help.
Most of the games in the kids came in the second half of the year and i belive was more Pagan being pushed rather than initiating this.

At end of the day it will be a compromise ... pagan to remain hopefully with a new and more youthful support staff. with the review i hope also that Trout and libba replaced. The key is that we need to have someone to take over if Pagan was to depart early ie dosnt change.

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CFC TAC Squad everyone over 25 must be traded sounds like Loguns Run

I know you've acknowledged that Brisbane had injuries which forced them into the situation, but at one point they had almost no other choice than to play the kids.

About a third of their list injured if I recall correctly.

You've only listed some of Brisbane's debutants over the last two seasons, you've also neglected to mention the age of some of them.

You've also neglected to mention the type of 22 they're coming into. Class players who, even if they can't run anymore, still demand some attention and can draw a couple of players in the play to ease the pressure on these youngsters.

Brisbane's List sorted by age

Carlton's List sorted by age

Look at the middle bands.

Look at what the extra slots in the rookie list afford them.

Look at the top age bracket and look at the class and experience through it.

You cannot use Brisbane as a basis for comparison.

There is no basis for comparison.

Since the collapse of Fitzroy there has been NO comparable side until Essendon* came along with their "anything aboriginal is a superstar" theme of 2005 drafting, and you're yet to see the worst of what can happen to their list.

Such is the state of the top age brackets of our list either in quantity or quality that a lot more of the development is thrusted on the football department alone, rather than having players to take up a bit of the slack, say at a Brisbane or even a Port Adelaide.

The coach is never the sole responsibility for this in any side. It's about character, character in the playing group, character in those assisting the playing group.

Does Denis have this strength of character? I believe so.

Do the players possess this strength? In some cases yes, but in quite a bit, no, no they do not. But for a lot of those they'll grow and learn.

No more comparisons, you can tear down every last one of them with simple responses.

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29 different attributes,
And only 7 that you like;
20 ways to see the world,
Or 20 ways to start a fight.

A few thoughts from reading the posts.

a. To compare us to Adelaide and Neil Craig is completely wrong. As stated earlier, Criag inherited a senior core of Roo, McLeod, Edwards, Goodwin, Hart, Bassett. Clarke etc, and had had acccess the fascillities we couldm only dream about. Yes he has done a good job, but the two are not comparable.

b. Sanatnta / Kennedy / Smith / Edwards / Bower / Russell / Jackson / Flint . To list the above and say we have not developed them is wrong.
Setanta is a huge risk and he is showing improving
JK was injured, no preseason and is a big developing guy. Less than 1 full season is not enough to judge development.
Smith - Just not up to it IMO
Edwards - First year player, who is still a fair way off a regular role.
Bower - Injured in a key time of the year.
Russell - Has been a bit of a disappointment.
Jackson Flint - Just 1st year rookies, give them time .
We expect far too much too soon.

c. Our drafting through the 'no draft' years was admirable, but there was no where near enough talent for a side bereft of any.

d. Pagan inherited a wooden spoon side, with no access to improve it through the draft. How do people actually think we were going to improve? Just by hoping????

e. We have had only 1 draft since Black Friday, where we have had access to elite talent (2004 was only picks 9 and 20?). This will be another one. These players need time to improve and develop. We are already seeing some signs of improvement, but it will take time and patience.

For me, I would see Pagan out for 2 years, and then reassess.

We've had access to one draft and we splurged on 3 kids.

You're right about one thing, we're seeing signs of improvement. Mediocrity does that.
Hell, we could finish bottom for 5 more years and have the best list in the history of the game!

Having a shit coach is great for your list hey? Well, we're on our way to being the best.

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Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.

Too answer the above questions my comparison of Brisbance was not so much the list but the game time and oppertunity given to the kids i see players like smith / Santanta / Kennedy / Bower / Russell

They had very little game time i think most have commented on how much time they spent on the pine and hoe little oppertunity they where on the field ..

The Brisbane kids and yes came from injuries and rookie elevations at least where gievn proper goes amd probabaly made mistakes but will allowed to to continue and learn from mistakes..

Most of our kids where on for 5-10 mins late in a quarter made a mistake probably cause they where nervous and new that one mistake would put them on the pine... but ended up on the pine anyway..

---

In regards to Adelaide and Westcoast with the change of coach.. Yes they had a better list and the inference was that the coach that they had Ayres and Judge both had lost the players .. lost confidence in the game plan and finished a list well below where they should be ... see Geelong now..
The change of coach imidiately changed the way the team played ... better equipped the team with a more modern game plan .. Gave the players a coach that worked more closely with the players.. and i look at Adelaide yep they have some great players but players who are average have also improved ... massie a blues reject pretty average player has made that list ... i am afraid to say but i reckon Sporn under adelaides coaching could be a lot better than he is ...

This is my comparisson... A change of coach ... properly selected with a new team and also more able to relate to the players could be a positive change and make our list improve at a faster rate than it currently is.

We comment on our skills and how they need to be improved and where does that come from .. Coaching .... Put Sporn ... Walker ... Russell to name 3 into Adelaide or Westcoast and they would have developed far faster than they currently have under our coaching.. Murphy is the exception he has skills and exceptional determination and character ... he will prosper because he will make sure he does ...

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CFC TAC Squad everyone over 25 must be traded sounds like Loguns Run

Just to add to that Wolfe....................

SEN was saying the other day that Pagan is heading in the right direction and has done well with the kids this season. They went on to say that he has 'Blooded 9 youngsters' this year.

By round 20, we had only blooded 5! So i'm guessing Pagan just threw 2 more in to end the season JUST so he could match last years quota (also 9).
He had almost half a flower season to promote Ryan Jackson, but apparently he just wasn't knocking loud enough. Then all of a sudden, in the last match of the year he gets promoted - what a shock!!!!!!!!!!! What a flower disgrace more like it.

And Blackwell has clearly missed out on a rising star nomination because Dennis is to scared to play him for more than 30min a game!

Disgracefull effort IMHO!

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"We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit"
- Aristotle