TANKER!!!!!!!!!

Sorry Jar. I actually think there is more talent in this group than you.
If we are allowed to go man on man with our opponents, we perform quite well. But our opponents dont allow that. They drop players behind the ball, play 8 backs etc.
That's when we struggle to counter.

Tactically we flounder when something other than the basic occurs.

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Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.

I didnt think we could score more than 9 goals against the Swans because they have a style of footy that chokes teams like ours... guess what??? i was right!

We were cannon fodder for a team as tactically aware as the swans.
we dont have the smarts in the box and we certainly havent done the work and being drilled to do anything about it.

They choked us..... easy...

Its because we are very uncomplicated and unsophisticated in our gamne preparations.

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Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

Agreed BV and Synbad. Whenever we actually play a team with a game plan, even those with arguably less skill, size or anything else than us, you know we are up against it.

Port Adelaide played young and inexperienced teams against us all year and wiped us from the floor.

Pre-season training was all about contested ball from 3 on 3 situtions. Do that and we're fine. But 3 on 5 and we lose. Port and others play additional players - some just plain old basic HBR's (hand ball receives) and run it forward. They trust their skill to find a leading forward. We hit the flood and mess it up because of forward structure and poor kicking.

Look at the Swans - they push the rules to the line but they are very good at it. They work so very hard to ensure they dont lose a clearance. They are better at our main clearance point than us, minimising our ability to get close to them. As soon as it looks like they've got it they spring to shepherd or position for handball to ensure its an effective clearance. We just dont, cant or wont.

This pre-season regardless of who is running the shop should focus on that, plus other points of course.

I think Jarusa is happy to have 2007 as the years we've just had in 2005 and 2006. Jarusa is a patient man... 10 years he planned for Blueseum! 10 years! I'm a little more testy and demand some sort of improvement before my son picks another team!

I remember pre season... we got done by 99 points against Port.. and what do we do on the monday????

Running.... Denis ran them up the field.. he ran them down the fielod.. he ran them around the field.. there were short sharp runs.. there were long tough runs.. there were lots and lots of runs .... how Barrassiesqe was that????

I was wondering ... why arent we doing skills work and tactical work.. thats where we lost it....!!!

It was 2 weeks before the start of the season... and we were about to work on our fitness...


Denis has no clue about this modern game...

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Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

When the saints dropped a few back to the half back line we got smashed. Similar against Geelong

When we played west coast and it was one on one we did quite well

Why did the coach do absolutely nothing when the opposition dropped a few back?

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"You are being watched. The government has a secret system. A machine that spies on you every hour of every day. I know because I built it." - Finch

Coz he's a dud... hopefully soon-to-be an ex-dud.

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************************************************************
NOW YOU'RE JUST SOME CLUB THAT I USED TO KNOW.

Blue Vain,

You're obviously seeing something in our players that I'm not. If I had to choose between what is causing our problems then I'm firmly in the dud players and not the dud coach camp.

We just don't have the artillery to match it with most teams.

Let's change our game plan - to what? Kick it long to Sporn?

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If you'd given me the choice of going out and beating four men and smashing a goal in from thirty yards against Liverpool
or going to bed with Miss World, it would have been a difficult choice. Luckily, I had both. - George Best

I dont agree Keyser. If we are allowed to go 1 on 1 we do OK, not worldbeaters but competitive.

The St Kilda, Geelong, Fremantle and Port games highlight that we aint no good against a real defensive structure. Maybe its because we only have 1 forward but we just dont clear the ball throughout the defensive lines.

It should come as no surprise that we have our best games this year against the Eagles & Melbourne who are pretty straight up teams tactics wise and also Essendon* who are a shambles but dont know it yet.

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Formerly: Ackland the Wonderkid / Army the Wonderkid / quivering mess / molsey / Tony Lynn Fan Club

We were able to match it with West Coast when it was one on one yet whenever a team pushes a loose man into our forward line we turn to shit.

Remember Rd 1 2005? Leigh Brown played loose man for the entire game. Were any moves made? Against St Kilda S Fisher/Goddard were allowed to play loose. They smashed us. Same against Geelong.

He is paid big bucks to at least make a move after the opposition put a loose man down there. At Hawthorn, Alistair Clarkson doesn't allow the likes of Joel Bowden to play loose and it is very effective. Yet our coaching staff allow them to do what they want.

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"You are being watched. The government has a secret system. A machine that spies on you every hour of every day. I know because I built it." - Finch

We'll have to agree to disagree.

I look at our list and see an undersized back line, an understocked and underskilled midfield and a non-existent ruck division.

The only way you can fix that is to stock up using the draft.

Gee I miss the old days of:

Walls : Geez we're ordinary
Carlton : OK, Here's Braddles, Kernahan, Motley and Dorotich. Will that help?

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If you'd given me the choice of going out and beating four men and smashing a goal in from thirty yards against Liverpool
or going to bed with Miss World, it would have been a difficult choice. Luckily, I had both. - George Best

Keyser I dont think anyone is arguing we'd be a champion team with a great Coach. But we would have won more games if someone at the Club could overcome the flooding tactics of opponents. BV's posts in this regard are worth a read - I think they are extracts from his forthcoming book called 'Pagan - how not to Coach', but we either:

* attempt some form of manning up, clogging our forward line but preventing their ease of run-out of defence
* encourage our ball carrier to try to break the lines (which they cant - we only have Simmo and Walks and Bannister who even think of it) and kick from 50m or so
* find a way to create space in our forward line despite the flood

I find Pagan's methods limiting and I have limited tactical understanding of the game. Add my dislike of his development methods... they are so 1990's (!)... and I believe we would have and should have won more games.

Which begs the question is he sort-of tanking but lets not go into that.

Some want the coach sacked because our gameplan means we don't win games. Those people musn't want the priority pick.

Some don't want to win games so we get a priority pick. Those people musn't want the coach sacked.

So what about people who want the coach sacked, and a priority pick?

Exactly verbs - thats the quandary. Many on this site have been pro-tankers but taken umbrage at how bad we have lost games, how poor some of the positional moves were... how can you have both? How can you argue pro-tank (PP)and then wail at how badly we played in order to tank (or get the PP).

If what I saw as bad Coaching was deliberate in order to set Carlton up for a serious tilt of having a great team in 2010...then is it really bad Coaching?

and do we know if this was or was not the corner stone of the Collo/Pagan deal?

It certainly helps to explain the 3 year extension. No coach would take on the task unless they had a minimum of 3 years to rebuild.

I do find it difficult to accept that Denis has gone from an excellent coach (and people who say he only won the flags because of Carey are twits - lots of great players did not win flags why?) who won two flags and kept Nth in the finals when they were broke as all @#$%&!, to a bloke who cannot see what everyone (even me) else can see.

This is not to say Denis does not have flaws, he does. But they are not new flaws. They have not sprung up overnight. Yet in the past those flaws did not get in the way of his successes. Why not? Why only now?

As for the development problems. Well there is a flaw in the arguments used against Denis. Most arguments go along one of 2 lines.

a) of assisting all players regardles of talent/skill etc. Lets call this the Sporn argument.

b) the play the kids more often - we'll call this the Blackers argument.

A: fails to consider this is not a school, not a workplace as such. This is an eite sport that will chew up and spit out a thousand Jessie Smiths for every Marc Murphy. It is not the Jessies that a club as screwed up as us are looking for (not yet), its the Simmos, the Setantas, players that can give us an edge along with the elite kids, the Murphys and the Kennedys.

Denis is not so much developing as he is searching. Take Jackson on the weekend. He came on and had immediate impact and he got a lot more game time because of it. I reckon Denis has given him a tick. Bower got a tick that first game. It is ruthless. So what. I want the best side not the hippiest! This is Blue power not flower power.

B: Now this I have trouble with too. Why not play the kids for more time? I can only think of two reasons. Perhaps Denis is like Parkin, and believes their young bodies (unless elite) must be protected while they develop the muscle, awareness, miles to take on this game (The Simmo school of development) and like Pagan he does prefer the older stronger bodies but our older stronger bodies are shit so he is caught between a rock and a hard place.

Whatever, I seriously have a hard time accepting lose of skill via age as an argument.

or that this game is radically different from 1999 - I do not think it is. It is evolving but not at such a rapid pace that someone who knows the game as well as Denis cannot keep up - otherwise how the @#$%&! does BV or me or anyone over the age of 25 keep up with it?

So for me, I look for the simplest solution.

which would be the cattle.

except I barrack for these cattle so

its the super tank which comes to fruition next year! whoop whoop whoop!

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

You can have all the cattle you like but if it's 4 on 6 in your forward line, numbers will usually win out, particularly if the opposition numbers are smart and can use the handball well and can read the play well. This is a game plan issue.

Even if our forward line was Maclure, Walls, Kernahan, Jesaulenko at their peak, if the opposition put 6 defenders back there against them, I'd say that 80% of the time, the opposition would win the ball and run it out of defence. If they were allowed to play man-on-man, ok, we might have a contest and win most of them but BV's point is that we are very rarely allowed to play man-on-man and always have 2 loose men against our forward line.

Keyser if you think it's just a case of not having enough cattle on the park, you'd only be partly right. You can have all the cattle you want on the park but if they're not utilised properly, then they're no better than the average 3rd round draft pick.

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"A good composer does not initiate. He steals."

- Igor Stravinsky

Got an angry call here from from some bloke calling himself 'Nail' for you Mols.

Claims you sconed him something fierce this morning...

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29 different attributes,
And only 7 that you like;
20 ways to see the world,
Or 20 ways to start a fight.

We had to lose games to pick up a priority pick and that has happened. If the last week of the season had been the collingwood game i'm sure half of you sheep would be saying Pagan should stay rather than go - it's just the way you lot are.

Any team thats loses look like they have a shit game plan and none was worse than Pagans in 2003 but it's improved a lot since then.

The players loved - Schwab, Shaw, Watson, Frawley etc but they were shitty coaches and when it came down to it the players didn't play for them either.

Look at what happened when Stan Alves was replaced from St Kilda coz 'the players didn't like him'.

Despite everyone on this site looking at our young players as 'amazing talent' because it's the first time we've ever had a half decent young kid in our team for about ten years, they aren't. Our list is shit and we are better off sticking with Pagan. Why the hell the board or so called "hardcore supporters" (that you lot claim to be) would want to win games next year is beyond me.

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"Davies could eventually become a player of Judd's ability" - Paganite03 Click here to see for yourself!

Is'nt sarcasm known as the lowest form of wit Keyser?

Our gameplan has evolved quite well this year and so it should have. We are finally playing contemporary footy instead of still trying to persist with 90s football.
I have commended Denis on his willingness to adapt.

But we have a skeleton framework which we are dealing with without the neccesary intricacies.
Thus we are able to match sides who play man on man footy ie. West Coast this year but we struggle when there is variation requiring tactical intervention. If our opponents allow us to match them up with 6 man forwardlines and 6 man backlines, we are fine.
(Which indicates to me that our list is able to compete well on equal terms)

Our trouble starts with anything other than basic opposition tactics. Situations like when our opponents back their loose players in to beat ours. Our players struggle to work their way through a different situation and the answers dont come from the box.
These tactics must be explained and drills catered to simulate these situations.
It doesnt happen!

Denis goes away on Monday and discusses the problems with his assistants and they try and counter last weeks tactics. But this week throws up different, new tactics!
Our coach needs to address these issues at quarter time and have an answer. He has nothing!

So no. We dont need to" kick it to Sporn".
Our basic gameplan is fine (and something I've been banging on about for 4 years!). If a basic supporter like me can see whats required, why cant a 700k coach?

http://www.talkingcarlton.com/phpBB2/vi ... 31&start=0

Let me finish by asking you this.
We now have a coach who if he survives will be told by the board what gam style to play, which players to play (youth), what type of recruiting policy to take and who he can have in the box with him.
He will have his hand held for him with every apect of coaching.
And for this we will pay 700k per year.

Is our coach acceptable?

Not a hope in hell.

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Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.

I would think that given restrictions like you have stipulated that the Coach's position would be untenable. Maybe they're trying to get Pagan to resign. Could our committee be that clever?

So our basic problem is that we have to beat the flood when opposition teams try it against us. Maybe the coach has noticed it as well.

How do we beat the flood?

With our elite kicking skills?
Our sure handling and precision passing?
Our blistering run through the middle?
Our breathtaking vision and decision making?

We need Howitzers. We've got popguns.

Sarcasm? What sarcasm?

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If you'd given me the choice of going out and beating four men and smashing a goal in from thirty yards against Liverpool
or going to bed with Miss World, it would have been a difficult choice. Luckily, I had both. - George Best

Yet every player has been bought to the club by Pagan or re-signed by him.
As a matter of fact, we're going so well he chose not to use any picks later than pick 36 last year.

List management hey?

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Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.