If Pratt comes on board we can employ both

I am sick to death of faceless powerbrokers.

If I hear "heavy backers will return to the club if Collins/Smorgon/Pagan etc etc go" I'll spew. Have the guts to publicly come forward or shut up. If these people remain behind the scenes, what compells them to cough up when Pagan is sacked. We dont know wwho they are so how can we force them to pay.

Players are tired of pagans style ?Who . I want to know. Fev seems happy, Whitnall had his best year, Kouta begged the club to re-sign him. Murphy starred and Walker and Simpson had their best years. Who are they ?Livo?Teague ?Lappin Who? Is it Digby?

I have little confidence in mitchell as senior coach. He has little AFL involvement. Most of his work is VFL. What a con-job saying that SOS, Dean and Ratten will come on board if mitchell signs. None of these guys have committed publicly. If you want to coach in the AFL, do you get to choose the senior coach when you are an assistant. This reeks of a Thomas/Geischen type coup and I dont like it.

If pagan has to go, we need to look at all candidates. Pyke, Longmire, Mckenna and even mark harvey would fill me with more confidece then Mitchell. $350k as a senior coach would land any of them. Is it worth skimping for $100k per year

_________________
T E A M

buz, no-one goes public with this stuff. The first rule of coach-bagging is that you never bag your coach in public. Even if he's doing your missus, you don't bag him publicly.

I reckon 6 wins in two seasons is ample evidence that Pagan can't work with our players. I don't have to hear first-hand evidence that the coaching and playing group aren't functioning well, with those sorts of results.

But yeah, I AM sick to death of the whole faceless powerbroker thing, though.

There's lots of good points in this thread - it is very hard to establish his performance against any measure as we don't have the measure in front of us.

Collins' quote this morning is interesting - something about not wanting to change things mid-way through, sort of an extension to the third year in a 5 year sentence...suggesting that the Collins / Pagan extension and relationship was about a long enough period of time to bring the Blues back to being credible. This was going well - too well - in Year 2 (2004), perhaps hit in 2005, and then fell off the rails (IMHO) in 2006. Some would argue that the development of a handful of kids (who may have developed under my Coaching) points to sucess in this regard but given membership, loss of the brand - we can only now agree that we are indeed a rabble, otehr players falling by the wayside...2006 was an abject failure. The retirement of French caps it off - it can be viewed as someone who gave their all but can no longer do so espite arguably his best year. Look at his stats - more games, hitouts and tackles than ever.

So the argument is - do you risk the status quo, or do you risk a new face part way through the '5 year sentence'?

The status quo is to me the far riskier path as it isn't better the devil you know in this sense. We cant afford him, we cant afford no improvement, we cant afford his nonsense relationship with the press, we cant afford his adherence to his development strategies. As a business, we need to rebuild, we need to sell who & what we are, and we need to change the public image.

Such a path would undermine any agreement of principle between Collins and Pagan but Collins is no longer makig the decisions. Mitchell, if he wins, is direct & honest and open to the press. That may change under the AFL pressure but as a business we need to change.

As a football club - well, I'll let someone with a clue in that regard mount that argument.

Wins are totally irrelevant - we needed priority picks and we have got them the last two years and I for one hope we get them again next year.

One week ago the sheep are all bleating how well we are going and the next they want Pagan sacked. I bet if you asked Walker, SImpson, Ohailpin, Fevola, Bower, Thornton, Betts, Murphy, Kennedy they'd all say Pagan's going alright. Ask our star studded VFL duds and they would probably moan on about how bad Pagan is and how great Mitchell is.

Ratten, SOS, Dean etc all want jobs next year and are probably struggling to find any assisntant coach openings at other clubs. Put yourself in their shoes, they are thinking of themselves as first priority. The fact that the board are even entertaining the idea shows just how insecure they are. The 'boys club' would be a disaster, imagine how these guys would go about preparing for a match compared with how Collingwood or Adelaide would.

If you can replace Pagan with - Roos, Eade, Craig, Worsfold then go for it, not with 'the boys club'.

_________________
"Davies could eventually become a player of Judd's ability" - Paganite03 Click here to see for yourself!

I wouldnt be including any parts of your anatomy in that bet.

_________________
Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.

Just ask Barry Round...

_________________
“When a clown moves into a palace, he doesn't become a king. The palace turns into a circus.”
Turkish Proverb

It appears what goes around goes around.

Rewind to 1993 Schimmelbusch gets boned by North and in comes a hungry coach in waiting, one D Pagan. Fast forward to 2006 it appears that D Pagan is going to get boned by carlton and one hungry coach in waiting, B Mitchell is about to be appointed.

Surely Mitchell is not the only possible candidate out there? Has a due diligence been done? Let's get someone from outside the club. Mitchell has been here for over 12 years. I'm not sold on him.

This has been forshadowed for at least the past month by several posters. It's already started - and the speed of it is almost breathtaking. Den Den is only the beginning. I think we'd better buckle up for the ride

I hope it is not Carlton One all over again because if it is it will be CARLTON NONE.

Or CARLTON GONE

_________________
And so while others miserably pledge themselves to the pursuit of ambition and brief power, I will be stretched out in the shade, singing.

But Cheryl's sandwiches got Mclaren across the line!

well if this is just the begining fine, if this board stays by getting rid of Denis I am @#$%&! spewing!!!!

_________________
This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

Danny .... Mitch is keen on a certain wash-up ruckman from way out west too ...

Kenny you have got to be the biggest tease on this site

_________________
If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

To an extent I don't mind who goes in the offseason. But a high profile recruiter??? Can we please, please, please keep Wayne Hughes? Seems to be an excellent scout to me - and I think we'd really throw the baby out with the bathwater if he went

People who are worried about Mitchell because of the time he has spent at the club should check out the history of Bob Paisley, arguably the most successful manager in the history of English football (having said that, the recent history of Carlton is hardly as stable as that of Liverpool in the years of Bill Shankly)


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Paisley

If you want to see membership and sponsorship plummet just wait for 2008 after super coach Barry Mitchell guides us to 5 or 6 wins in 2007.

_________________
"Davies could eventually become a player of Judd's ability" - Paganite03 Click here to see for yourself!

If the revolution is coming I hope it soon gets a face; we need to use this trade and draft period to set up the club, that means attracting players who aren't in desperate circumstances, but quality players who see us as a club that's going somewhere. This knives in the dark stuff doesn't sell the place as a club that anyone would want to risk their career at.

You don't need to go back that far. Try going back to the end of 2002. A certain Wayne Brittain got boned and who stepped neatly into the role (or so we thought)?

So where was Neil Craig before he got the job at Adelaide? The Crows were going nowhere with Gary Ayres leading the club. Neil Craig was just waiting in the wings and look at them now. It was an instant turnaround.