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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 4:28 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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TheGame wrote:
It's not about who is at fault. It's about whether this is working or not and it clearly isn't. He should never have been re-signed for a 2nd term especially when he had a year to run. Hopefully we can find a way to cut our losses and move on.

I wish that's what it was about G-man... unfortunately that's not where the debate is lying at the moment.

I will say this though: on face-value I would agree with you that it isn't working.

But it's seldom ever just face-value. :)

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 4:53 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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We were not going anywhere under denis.
He wasnt a new age coach.

Thats all there is.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 5:11 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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Synbad wrote:
We were not going anywhere under denis.
He wasnt a new age coach.

Thats all there is.

No such thing.

So long as something is built off a fundamental concept (football, clothing, economics), it's merely the ebb and flow of the level of popularity of different styles, i.e. the current trend.

Then there's sheep who flock to the trend as their blueprint for success. I applaud those who set the trend, not the sheep.

Matthews was one with Brisbane, Roos with Sydney. Eade and Craig are trying to do the same with the Doggies and the Crows.

Pagan's on that list. So I'll back him so long as he shows an ability to assess and modify his strategies. So far that's been the case. You can't change the game plan radically from week to week. You can't just take everything and overhaul it and give the boys 5 - 7 days to learn to play it at the required level. It's even harder if not all 22 players are up to standard.

Tell me you guys are actually thinking this through rather than huddling up in a corner and making angry noises then naming people.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 5:37 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko
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TheGame wrote:
It's not about who is at fault. It's about whether this is working or not and it clearly isn't. He should never have been re-signed for a 2nd term especially when he had a year to run. Hopefully we can find a way to cut our losses and move on.


Fair call.

We can analyse history as much as we want. It doesn't change the fact that maybe Pagan's race has been run (i'm not convinced whether we should ditch Pagan or not, btw)

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 5:42 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan

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Deano Supremo wrote:
(i'm not convinced whether we should ditch Pagan or not, btw)


HAVE A @#$%&! DIP DEANO!!!!!!! :lol:

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 5:47 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko
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Blue Vain wrote:
Deano Supremo wrote:
(i'm not convinced whether we should ditch Pagan or not, btw)


HAVE A F@%&#! DIP DEANO!!!!!!! :lol:


:-D

Personally, I'd like him to stay.

However, I also want the club to show that we're not tolerating wooden spoons. Coaches are normally the scapegoat for this sort of thing, so if they chop him I'll completely understand and support the decision.

Of course, if they hire Garry Lyon or Mark Harvey as his replacement I'll scream the f*cking house down.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 5:49 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan

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I'm pushing for Darren Bewick. :wink:

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 5:51 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko
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Blue Vain wrote:
I'm pushing for Darren Bewick. :wink:


:heartfailure:

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 5:54 pm 
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John Nicholls

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If Denis were to be sacked, what effect do you think this would have on Fevola?

Do you think he would go back to his old ways as Denis wouldn't be there keeping him in line?

If Denis was signed by another club at the end of the year, would Fev asked to be traded there?

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 5:57 pm 
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Geoff Southby
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phoenix johnson wrote:
If Denis were to be sacked, what effect do you think this would have on Fevola?

Do you think he would go back to his old ways as Denis wouldn't be there keeping him in line?

If Denis was signed by another club at the end of the year, would Fev asked to be traded there?


I reckon he'll live. :wink:

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 6:56 pm 
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Wayne Johnston
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As good as Denis has been for Fev, i think it is his wife and kids who will determine his behaviour in the future years whoever is Coach.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 10:20 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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Contrary to what the article said Denis wanted Fev gone this time last year.
Then he realised he had to work with him as noone could trade or was willing to trade for Fev.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 10:43 pm 
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John James

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I have read all the replies and there really isn't a compelling argument to sack him and take the massive financial pain it would incur on the club.
Certainly mistakes have been made over the past few years, but as people have suggested, we were desperate and had to make some calls, not all of which were right.

A key point made earlier, was that Carlton's turnaround didn't begin with Pagan arriving, but last year's draft. Before that we were just shuffling deck chairs on the Titanic. Now with some talent coming in and more to come we can start to judge Pagan's worth. If we don't see a continuation of the 'youth policy' and improvement in these players, then I think we can look at this job.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 10:49 pm 
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Stephen Silvagni
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SA Blue wrote:
I have read all the replies and there really isn't a compelling argument to sack him and take the massive financial pain it would incur on the club.


The cost is the thing. If these people are prepared to tip in $500k (the additional wages to pay Mitchell for 2 years, assuming he's replaced with another assistant) then they should be tipping it in regardless.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 11:31 pm 
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Harry Vallence
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TruBlueBrad wrote:
SA Blue wrote:
I have read all the replies and there really isn't a compelling argument to sack him and take the massive financial pain it would incur on the club.


The cost is the thing.


What's the cost in NOT getting rid of him due to lost members, lost sponsors, and lost attendances when we contnue to wallow at the bottom of the ladder?

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 11:38 pm 
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Harry Vallence
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OK, Let's sack Denis and put Mitchell in charge.

That should instantly give Sporn a yard of pace, Livo to grow 5cm and McGrath the ability to pick the right option.

I'm not buying it.

I know it hurts but I think we ARE improving. Does anybody here think we're not?

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 11:49 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan

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Keyser Soze wrote:
I know it hurts but I think we ARE improving. Does anybody here think we're not?


We're improving because our abysmal record is giving us quality draft picks!

Look at Sundays game against the Swans. Our players are unable to counter basic tactics. Our opponents run the ball from defence and our players overcommit to the player carrying the ball.
It is the role of the coaching staff to teach the players tactics and set ups.
We are so far off the pace tactically.

Are we improving, yes but nowhere near our capability.
Dont accept second best!

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 12:10 am 
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Mike Fitzpatrick
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You also have to throw in that we couldn't trade into those rounds of the draft from which we were docked, and you're ignoring that we would have had pick 5 in 2003.

Scotland for our third rounder? Pretty fair.

Beaumont for Harford and Johnson? We were held to ransom.

McKernan for Digby and Teague? WE WERE HELD TO RANSOM.

The Murphy and Allen trades were probably fair.

Michael Rischitelli, Shane Tuck and Andrew Raines were speculative picks, we opted for mature bodies and attempts to inject our side with cover for our most lacking areas, pace and ruck.

I dare say we wouldn't have even picked up Raines even if we scored ourselves a time machine.

I don't see much wrong with 2004, missed out on Egan (Geelong from their VFL side) and Moran (debuted round 21, about as speculative as Setanta).

2005 saw another 'safe' trade made for Saddington, and we haven't see anyone arise from that to indicate it's a mistake yet (please don't say Bartram, I'm not convinced). Sydney pays a good chunk of his salary, he's been unlucky with his knee.

Perhaps in hindsight we could have snared Jackson and scored another rookie pick, but who's to say we would have still got Flint, or that Jacko deserved to be on the senior list at the start of the year. Massive speculation.

So despite all these so called drafting tragedies that have occurred in this time, Denis has played a role in trade talks, and rough directives to WH for the drafts.

We've played it safe, and chipped away where possible - without any perceived currency at our end - and we had to give players who were probably on the bottom third of another clubs list a crack with us if we've wanted mature bodies.

Now for a quick run over of coaching style.

2003 - Slash and burn year, tried a few things and experimented with the list to see what he had to work with, probably paying very little attention to a system of play, rather simple positioning of players. A sink or swim sort of approach.

2004 - Threw out the worst of the duds, traded away those with value who were disenchanted with the idea of working harder to push for better results. Noted a huge lack of leg speed so sought about playing contested footy. Game plan for the players - better results came - at the expense of nice draft choices in our first year without restrictions.

2005 - First true transitional year, with teething problems, to put it nicely. A man known for his firm belief in the value of contested football was wearing down an ever-growing band of younger players by employing a game plan built off it. Attempted to build a free running aspect into the game plan to counteract the growing number of contests created in an attempt to protect younger players. Hardened bodies in the clearances used as sacrificial lambs.

Worked nicely in the Wizard cup but gave clubs an extra 4 weeks to check out what Denis was doing with his fairly bare cupboard, again. All the running seemed to be taking a toll on young (lack of pre-seasons in the legs) and old (carrying injuries), no real talent in the tier between to hold it all together.

2006 - Youngsters beginning to look like men, but Denis and/or the Board were not convinced in the game plan in regards to score margins and skil level of individuals, built off many players with question marks over their heads.

Ergo, chip, chip and flood to bring a more defensive mindset into the team as shootouts weren't working. Continued to protect younger players as much as possible. Unfortunately couldn't continue to hedge his bets, with protection of younger players through the bench impacting those out on the field who wound up doing as much running as the year before, still due to skill errors. Slowly loosened the chains (admittedly under duress) with sporadic results. Strength and endurance training began to reap some rewards and allowed for some positional and role changes.

Decision making, overall kicking skill and agility still noted as an issue to be corrected as best as possible through coaching, but mainly through injection of new and better talent. Still searching through the list for key defensive post and at least one ruckman with some encouraging results late in the season.

To be continued?


This is a very long, in depth post Jimmae and I don't really have it in me to read every word.

However, I don't think people read my analogy properly. The "we probably wouldn't have picked that player anyway" theory is also a massive cop-out. 'Speculating' is an important part of recruiting if, indeed, speculating is the right word.

We could have played the recycling game to a lesser extent than we did. We should have been a lot more subtle about it.

We could have grabbed a number of players to help out in the short term and still had a few pics in place for speculating.

The club has come out and admitted as such, why can't the fans?

True rebuilding (albeit slightly half-hearted) might have started at the end of last year but the seeds should have been put into place at least at the 2002 national draft.

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Last edited by Pafloyul on Tue Sep 05, 2006 12:50 am, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 12:12 am 
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Alex Jesaulenko
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Blue Vain wrote:
Keyser Soze wrote:
I know it hurts but I think we ARE improving. Does anybody here think we're not?


We're improving because our abysmal record is giving us quality draft picks!

Look at Sundays game against the Swans. Our players are unable to counter basic tactics. Our opponents run the ball from defence and our players overcommit to the player carrying the ball.
It is the role of the coaching staff to teach the players tactics and set ups.
We are so far off the pace tactically.

Are we improving, yes but nowhere near our capability.
Dont accept second best!


... and we need more picks!

Bit cheeky using a game where we played the reigning premier, who is still a top four, in form side on their interstate home ground while the team was expected to lose to gain the priority pick and stacked with kids and gumbies as an example of coaching inadequacies. :wink:

We need 4 wins or less in 2007.

No honeymoons in 2007!!

We need 2 more elite youngsters in 2007 to join the 4 or 5 we will have on the list at the end of 2006.

Then we can rebuild with a base that can get us somewhere decent.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 12:37 am 
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Bruce Doull
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George Harris wrote:
TruBlueBrad wrote:
SA Blue wrote:
I have read all the replies and there really isn't a compelling argument to sack him and take the massive financial pain it would incur on the club.


The cost is the thing.


What's the cost in NOT getting rid of him due to lost members, lost sponsors, and lost attendances when we contnue to wallow at the bottom of the ladder?

So while some are saying we're being held ransom by Denis, others are holding us to ransom if we don't rid ourselves of him?

Joy.

Today's word is... ransom. :?

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