Not at all, I can see how lists can still become polar opposites under a draft system.

Only idiots like Grant Thomas intentionally develop a side to replicate a playing style (Lions circa 2003).

I think you both make some good points.

Yep, picks alone AREN'T enough.

You also need to be good enough to develop talented youth, and have a coaching system that creates a great team from talented individuals.

Flags are a pipe-dream unless you get EVERYTHING right. And even then, in the last decade you've been battling against Brisbane and Sydney getting larger salary caps, and it's pretty clear that other non-Vic teams have a very real home ground advantage that more than negates the extra travel they do.

It's not going to be easy for the Blues to win No.17 -we're going to need to do EVERYTHING right.

It has virtually nothing to do with picks and much much more to do with playing as a team. It doesn't matter who you have in your side, history will show you that Eccles or Olarenshaw or Shannon bloody Motlop can play in your premiership side.

How many premierships will Travis Johnston or Brett Delidio or Jeff White or Adam Cooney or Luke Hodge win? If they win one (which Hodge is looking unlikey before his 30th birthday) they'll all be on par with Eccles, Olarenshaw and Motlop.

The good thing is when Carlton do click it is very exciting football, not this piddly shit that Sydney serve up each week. Yes it won them a premiership but at the same time turned me away from the game for the most part of this year as other teams copied it...

Only recently has footy become better as more open games have come about... much more exciting! I actually enjoyed watching Ess v Bris (until Ess took an insurmountable lead )

Didn't Eccles win 2?

No, but Troy Bond is a premiership player...and not for Carlton.

Why's that verbs?

And you still haven't addressed my earlier question.

I'm interested to know why you made both of those statements (as opposed to calling you on something and deliberately trying to stir something up, which I realise is how it may come across)

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And so while others miserably pledge themselves to the pursuit of ambition and brief power, I will be stretched out in the shade, singing.

I was surprised given Hawthorn haven't had our handicaps, and have had plenty of early draft picks in the last five years, yet they are still languishing in third last spot.

Given we are supposedly quite adrift of Hawthorn (say two or three years behind them) if we are only in third last place in three years time, that would make eight years languishing with no chance of finals action. That's not far off ten years at the arse end at all.

In the blink of an eye it will be ten years of poor performance.

Ah, I see where you're coming from now.

I don't necessarily agree, but I see why you said what you did.

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And so while others miserably pledge themselves to the pursuit of ambition and brief power, I will be stretched out in the shade, singing.

Believe it or not, I will be very happy if we are performing above 12-14th position in 2009.

A good list is only as good as the way they are coached and developed which is why Hawthorn and St Kilda havent won anything yet. St Kilda are firing up to the end of the year but still not sure they have it right yet.

IMHO Pagan is better than Thomas and Clarkson combined so hopefully in the next 2 years we'll see some resemblance of a team.

I agree that's what is important Synbad - that we dont endure this for some pissweak 7th, 8th and 10th finishes and it actually propels us somewhere - my comment was more that no matter how much gold is attached to coming last, we're still last and every other Club (and its fans) will remind us of that and take solace that they're not in our position.

We can talk all we want about the gold and what it may bring in future but history will show we're the St Kilda of the decade on the back of all the reasons we all know & discuss ad nauseum on here, other sites and general chit-chat etc.

I'd suggest that this matters less & less to individual Carlton supporters as we become accustomed to being losers in a football sense, but I'm sure we'll dump it on other Clubs as we come out of it. But it still hurts like hell, I'm not sure we should forget that - it can sort of be forgotten if you look ahead enough.

Agree with all of that...

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"When you have the attitude of a champion, you see adversity as your
training partner."
- Conor Gillen