If I was the club, I would be approaching Denis and asking him to take a pay cut. To make it realistic I'd offer a similar deal to the one that was offered to Kouta a few years back.

Take Denis' remaining two years, and pay him the same amount over a three year contract.

Benefits:
1) it would reduce expenses in 2007 and 2008 and improve our cashflow by around $200k per year (based on media estimates of his contract)
2) it gives the club access to him at the reduce rate in 2009
3) the dollar value of the contract hasn't changed, so if we end up paying him out by the end of 2008 nothing has changed in dollar terms

The only weakness I can see in this scenario is if Denis made it to the end of 2008 and we wanted to get rid of him, then we'd have to find the money to pay out the 2009 contract. But, under the current terms we'd have already spent that money, so there would be no net loss, only the risk that we still weren't viable enough to pay it out.

I thought this might provide Denis the incentive of another year to turn things around, help our cashflow a little over the next two years and not financially hurt the club if we had to pay him out. It's unlikely that Denis will get a good offer at the end of his current Carlton contract, so it may be of interest to him.

Thoughts?

Steve pull your head in we dont want him around one second longer than he has to .

and why would he take a pay cut .

Can you imagine Denis in the real world

Denis the Car Salesman

This supposed gun salesman you hired 4 years ago he has only sold 2 cars this year whats going on

Or yeah back in 96 and 99 he was the top salesman in the country

I dont care what he did back then go ask him why he is not selling


He just said give me good cars and I will sell them for you


Denis the Lawyer

Whats going on with this gun lawyer you hired he has only won 20 of his last 80 odd cases and almost 50 of them they have got life .I thought he was supposed to be good

Yeh but back in 96 and 99 he was the best lawyer in the land


I dont care what he did back then go ask him whats going on

He just said all the good crims have gone to another firm give him good crims and he win cases for you.


Denis the teacher

Denis why have only 20 of your past 80 odd students passed there exams

Give me good students and I show passes . What about Fev his marks are sensational

But Denis they are all failing whats going on



Think about it Steve - Extend his contract ??????????????????????

I'm not in Pagan's camp, so son't see my post as an endorsement, but see it as an option to help us commercially over the next two years with no downside, if we want to terminate at the end of 2008 it costs us nothing over the current arrangement.

I'm just trying to think outside the square a little given our current restrictions financially.

Steve pull your head in we dont want him around one second longer than he has to........and why would he take a pay cut .

Can you imagine Denis in the real world

Denis the Car Salesman

This supposed gun salesman you hired 4 years ago he has only sold 2 cars this year whats going on

Or yeah back in 96 and 99 he was the top salesman in the country

I dont care what he did back then go ask him why he is not selling

He just said give me good cars and I will sell them for you................

Steve from what have read in the papers the last few months we are financially better off now than we were when we signed Pagan almost 16 months ago on and extended contract . Pagan knows that and he would have known that when he signed the last contract . He will no way known take a cut to extend his contract by one extra year . Kouta in someways done the honouralbe thing and extended his contract to both ensure he played longer than he would have and to help the club.(mind you he was on a pretty penny to begin with) - fact or opinion?

'Pagan is not Kouta with Pagan its all about Pagan and no one else.' - fact or opinion? And does this imply Kouita is not about himself and is about everyone else? - or maybe both are people, both think about others and themselves? And is it worse to pay too much for a coach (no salary cap influence) or a player (with salary cap influencs)?

'He coaches for himself and this is obvious by team selections and his history at Carlton.' - or he is coaching for the club and does not give a distant fart for your opinions, not swayed by popularity but by what he thinks is right. Which is it? you and I will never know. Denis appears adamant that you should not just bring the kids in and play them
but rather develop them. So disagree with his development plans but don't pretend he has no plan.

'He went half cocked' - half-cocked? Based on what?

'in the preseason trying to event a gameplan that would avoid beltings and with the aid of the draft and a refinement to that gameplan we will improve next year . He will peak the side for the first 6 or so games and maybe the Nab Cup (are you implying here Pagan got the boys up for the NAB cup only to get a contract extension?) and then go hell for leather at Sticks and Smorgan to get that contract extended .' or the team is improving along the lines he/ the club expects.

'Will they buy it this time . you bet your arse they will 'they will be climbing over themselves to sign him again . I just hope Fitzy brings them to their senses .' so if they do, Fitzy failed, if they don't Fitzy was the reason. Nothing to do with anyone else? Gee you have great knoweldge of the workings of this club.

'See what most people tend to forget' -think no one has forgotten this, no one, but it makes you sound as if you know what you are talking about, as if you are tlaking facts raher than an opinion.

'is the reason you hire a coach like Pagan and pay the dollars you do is that they are supposed to be better than other coaches they are supposed to bring the best out of the playing group . Pagan hasn't and doesn't look like doing it any time soon . We have hired what we thought was a Super Coach and ended up with a Grant Thomas . The side will improve through sheer weight of draft picks ala St kilda . But thats not the reason Pagan was hired for he was Hired to get us there quicker' - quicker than what? What was seen as a quick time frame? Ten years? Seven years? And are you talking here about when he was first hired (to save JE's arse) or resigned?

'and it must be obvious now even to the most ardent Pagan supporter that this is not happening .' depends on that time frame I'd suggest. I keep remembering Wallsy saying 7 to 10 years before we are competitive again and whenever I get frustrated (often I admit these last 3 years) I remember that its 2 to go for the bottom end of his prediction!

'He should be tapped on the shoulder now - paid out and someone newer brought in . This could see a total turn around in the clubs on field performance thus negating the effects of having to pay Pagan out by the interest in the fans . Because lets face it we have been crap for 5 years now its getting a bit tiresome and even the diehard fans are struggling to show interest

Carlton needed to do exactly the same and from much further back (yes I know old news lets forget the past, future, future, future ra ra ra). I actually think if 3 things happen we'll start to really push the year after next.

Those 3 things are

1) A CHB - Hansen? Thorpe? Gumbleton?

2) A midfielder (or 2) (with pace) as good (roughly) as Murph

3) Aisake or Batson (and if both we are away) to really make it.

If I was the club, I would be approaching Denis and asking him to take a pay cut. To make it realistic I'd offer a similar deal to the one that was offered to Kouta a few years back.

Take Denis' remaining two years, and pay him the same amount over a three year contract.

Benefits:
1) it would reduce expenses in 2007 and 2008 and improve our cashflow by around $200k per year (based on media estimates of his contract)
2) it gives the club access to him at the reduce rate in 2009
3) the dollar value of the contract hasn't changed, so if we end up paying him out by the end of 2008 nothing has changed in dollar terms

The only weakness I can see in this scenario is if Denis made it to the end of 2008 and we wanted to get rid of him, then we'd have to find the money to pay out the 2009 contract. But, under the current terms we'd have already spent that money, so there would be no net loss, only the risk that we still weren't viable enough to pay it out.

I thought this might provide Denis the incentive of another year to turn things around, help our cashflow a little over the next two years and not financially hurt the club if we had to pay him out. It's unlikely that Denis will get a good offer at the end of his current Carlton contract, so it may be of interest to him.

Thoughts?

' he could be tapped and we could bring someone knew in and if we do not improve, or worse, we improve for a year and then fall back again, or two years and fall back again because the new coach makes decision based on short term fixes and suddenly a ten year term of shite becomes a fifteen, a twenty, a relocation plan?

I have no problems with questioning his tactics, his selections etc. I get frustrated sometimes because I want the kids to play, because we kick in worse than other treams according to my (limited) observations but I try and remember that in reality I know nothing about the team, about nurturing footballers, about strucures etc. So while I might become frustrated i try to keep it in perspective. I am a supporter with little real information.

Pagan is undoubtably making mistakes and in the end I expect the club to weigh up those mistakes against his success and make a decisioon. In no way do I think he is evil, out to destroy the club or any other scenario. He is a man coaching a team.

This site is becoming a lynch mob - no logic, no reasoning, just a need to find a scapegoat and hang them from the nearest tree.

We must look at the coach and evaluate his efforts

We must also use reason not hatred or bias.

We should try and remember we do not know what is happening only what we think is happening.