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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 12:27 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko

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Shakin77 wrote:
Players walking into the PSD is a bit of a fallacy. Take away 2004 (Stevens and Rawlings) and it’s not the gold mine everyone thinks it is. It can be used as a bargaining chip, but players don’t turn their back on their current club and walk into the PSD for big dollars. A little bit of loyalty is still in the game

2000
1. Collingwood - Shane O'Bree (Brisbane)
2. Fremantle - Brad Bootsma (Sth Fremantle)

2001
1. St Kilda - Brett Voss (Brisbane Lions)
2. Collingwood - Chad Rintoul (West Coast Eagles)

2002
?? - (Little Help)

2003
1. St Kilda - Stephen Powell (Melbourne)
2. Richmond - Pass
3. Sydney - Craig Bolton (Brisbane)

2004
1. Western Bulldogs - Jade Rawlings (Hawthorn)
2. Carlton - Nick Stevens (Port Adelaide)

2005
1. Richmond - Trent Knobel (St Kilda)
2. Collingwood - Blake Caracella (Brisbane)




Essendon* picked up a good one this year :oops:

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 12:36 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko
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Sydney Blue wrote:
Shakin77 wrote:
Players walking into the PSD is a bit of a fallacy. Take away 2004 (Stevens and Rawlings) and it’s not the gold mine everyone thinks it is. It can be used as a bargaining chip, but players don’t turn their back on their current club and walk into the PSD for big dollars. A little bit of loyalty is still in the game

2000
1. Collingwood - Shane O'Bree (Brisbane)
2. Fremantle - Brad Bootsma (Sth Fremantle)

2001
1. St Kilda - Brett Voss (Brisbane Lions)
2. Collingwood - Chad Rintoul (West Coast Eagles)

2002
?? - (Little Help)

2003
1. St Kilda - Stephen Powell (Melbourne)
2. Richmond - Pass
3. Sydney - Craig Bolton (Brisbane)

2004
1. Western Bulldogs - Jade Rawlings (Hawthorn)
2. Carlton - Nick Stevens (Port Adelaide)

2005
1. Richmond - Trent Knobel (St Kilda)
2. Collingwood - Blake Caracella (Brisbane)




Essendon* picked up a good one this year :oops:

Heffernan is shit. 8)


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 12:38 pm 
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Geoff Southby
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Yeah but the club don't get everything right ...If a fan or larry from down the road thinks that the Saddington decision is piss poor, all the 'reasons' and 'facts' from the club probably won't make any difference to his original opinion. There are chances taken in footy and decisions are made , and just because a decision is made, by the club, doesn't always make it the correct one. Anyone is allowed to question.....especially when now it's clear that our club has severely stufffed up in the past.

Alot of us have just turned a bit skeptical..........

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 12:43 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick
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...but deano, he does not give us the facts, he gives us short, blunt snippets that do not really add up to anything concrete. We do not really hear enough to sort out the truth from the rhetoric.

A lot of people use a very basic kind of logic on these forums so I'm just trying to 'Keep the bastards honest' (sorry Cazz, I don't think you do it on purpose).

I think time will tell on the Saddington issue, I'm neutral myself but I don't swallow the "we were never going to use pick 52" argument for one second I'm afraid.


There is nothing wrong with my thought processes; I think you have got things a little 'arse up'.

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Last edited by Pafloyul on Mon Mar 20, 2006 12:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 12:46 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick

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Posts: 4827
Wasnt much offering this last season pre season draft wise...it was Mclaren or other hacks like Guerra or a U18 kid...with a lack of size on the list and French in the twighlight years and having two ruckman in Deluca and Bryan who have some skills but rucking isnt one of them I think Wayne Hughes probably felt compelled to take Mclaren...I think he will be handy at times but not likely to be a major factor.

Karl Norman didnt work out, Livo is on life support career wise and we have now turned to Lance as security for the backline. You add a out of form Thornton and you could see why Saddington created interest.
Agree like Mclaren he is no world beater but while Bower/Hartlett find their feet I think Hughes felt Saddington could fill a hole and provide an alternative tall with some athletic ability...providing he can get on the park.


Mclaren and Saddington are bandaids until the younger players make good. A lot of our problems are because the 2000 draft didnt work out..those players should be regular senior players now, if they had worked out we wouldnt be needing bandaid fixes in some areas...

re: Heffernan....average player but good clubman and seen by Essendon* as a James Clement type...well spoken, articulate, and well respected....better value than Ty Zantuck for example...

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 12:58 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko
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Pafloyul wrote:
...but deano, he does not give us the facts, he gives us short, blunt snippets that do not really add up to anything concrete. We do not really hear enough to sort out the truth from the rhetoric.

A lot of people use a very basic kind of logic on these forums so I'm just trying to 'Keep the bastards honest' (sorry Cazz, I don't think you do it on purpose).

I think time will tell on the Saddington issue, I'm neutral myself but I don't swallow the "we were never going to use pick 52" argument for one second I'm afraid.


There is nothing wrong with my thought processes; I think you have got things a little 'arse up'.


So if Cazz hasn't given us the facts, perhaps you could enlighten us?

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 1:14 pm 
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Robert Walls
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Location: Brisbane
I'm really puzzled by all of this.
My guess is that Saddo will be an ok pick up for us, and that McLaren won't. Okay - read that sentence again. It said 'my guess...' And that's all it comes down to - a guess. That's all any of you are doing. You're making guesses about how good these guys are going to be.
So let's take out the guesswork, and assess these moves according to the information currently available. That is, let's look at the logic the club used - and much of this has eloquently been put by Cazzesman (who by the way, is under no obligation to provide the inside thinking - and as such we should be praising his thoughts rather than denigrating them), So here goes:

1. We have a list with holes everywhere
2. Two particularly noticeable holes are the backline (talls) and the ruck
3. The draft was weak in 2005
4. We drafted to fix as many holes as we could given (a) the strength of the draft; and (b) our position in the draft. In the end, our drafting was 1 on-baller, two key position players, and one utility (Edwards). It was our belief that depth did not run past about pick number 45.
5. We have an issue with (a) salary cap; and (b) finances overall
6. Hence, no opportunity to make a massive play for a player such as Power in the PSD. Thus recruiting efforts are necessarily limited.
7. However, given the lack of depth on our list, and the need for our young players to develop at their own pace, it was necessary to draft some senior bodies to complement what we already have.
8. Saddington and McLaren fit the bill of: not too expensive, won't add to salary cap problems, have potential to add to ruck and key backline positions.
9: We take Saddington at pick 52 in a draft we believe lacks quality past pick 45 (and I'm probably being generous there)
10: We take McLaren at pick 1 in the PSD when we need ruck back-up for French and there is agreement that the young ruck options in the draft were not gilt-edged opportunities. Only quality player in the PSD was previously ours, and we had shown him the door on discipline issues.

So what do we have? A Tall Backline player and a ruckman who can both play immediately. They don't cost the earth, and they allow Kennedy, Bower, Edwards, Aisake, Hartlett, and Batson to develop at their own rate. We don't kill ourselves salary cap wise, and most importantly we don't endanger any further our financial position. It amazes me that some of those advocating we make the big play for Power are the same people who are advocating massive board changes because our finances are out of order.

In the end, Saddo and McLaren are likely to be prospects to hold positions in the team for the next couple of years while our young players develop. We haven't given up anything for them, and we haven't endangered the financial health of the club to bring them here. They are said to be good role models for our young blokes - they come from clubs who have won four of the past five premierships. I keep seeing that we need leadership - and whilst I don't know if these guys bring us leadership, they sure have been immersed in a winning culture. They've been coached by the best, and they've played with the best. If they even are able to add 10% knowledge of winning football culture to the kids on our list then their recruitment will have paid for itself.

Look, come the end of the year - I fully expect to be bottom three, if not wooden spoon. But will I be cursing and swearing and saying that recruiting these guys have set us back? Well, look at the other options we had.... there just wasn't much on the table.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 1:30 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko
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I love how the benefit of hindsight is so eloquently used by many.

Not so many are willing to put their knowledge on the line and say what we should do as opposed to what we should have done.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 1:31 pm 
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Stephen Silvagni

Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:03 am
Posts: 25557
Location: Bondi Beach
A great analysis of our current situation. Well put.

All your guesswork seems logical.

We are now where we are, as far as the list goes. And that's what we've got to work with.

I guess if Williams, Sticks, SOS, Bradley...came back then I guess we'd have a great team; but that's only a guess. Guess what? It aint gonna happen.

I think the selectors got it pretty right in 2005. Refer to the Post Draft Thread, and it seems most TCers were more than happy with the selections; in fact they were ecstatic!!

It's not the time of the year to be discussing the October Draft; except at the prospects....we've got round 1 to think about, followed by another 21 rounds. We'll then see how the cards have fallen. So forward we march with the young list, and round 1; then as the cliche goes, one week at a time.

Thanks again for taking the time out and sharing your analysis Molly.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 2:02 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan
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Pafloyul wrote:
...but deano, he does not give us the facts, he gives us short, blunt snippets that do not really add up to anything concrete. We do not really hear enough to sort out the truth from the rhetoric.

A lot of people use a very basic kind of logic on these forums so I'm just trying to 'Keep the bastards honest' (sorry Cazz, I don't think you do it on purpose).

I think time will tell on the Saddington issue, I'm neutral myself but I don't swallow the "we were never going to use pick 52" argument for one second I'm afraid.


There is nothing wrong with my thought processes; I think you have got things a little 'arse up'.


Believe me or don't believe me, I don't really care. As I said Carlton weren't going to use pick 52 at all due to a number constraints. I gave you the fact of the matter. I admit it's not written in triplicate and mailed out to everyone CFC supporter but that's all you get.

If you think I'm a liar who make this stuff up just win an argument then you are sadly uninformed.

Regards Cazzesman

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 2:15 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick
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Well then put them politely into laymen’s terms that people can understand then Cazza instead of blurting them out in an attempt to quash an argument.

Is all of this before you add Saddington into the equation, or after. 8)

In other words, what could be the differance in adding Saddington to the list as apposed to another draftee?

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 2:22 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko
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Pafloyul wrote:
Well then put them politely into laymen’s terms that people can understand then Cazza instead of blurting them out in an attempt to quash an argument.

Is all of this before you add Saddington into the equation, or after. 8)

In other words, what could be the differance in adding Saddington to the list as apposed to another draftee?


I thought he did?

Salary cap concerns (Sydney paying the bulk of Saddo's contract).

The fact that there wasn't anyone who would offer what Saddo offers - support for Thornton and Teague whil Russell, kennedy etc get up to speed

What other info were you aftre that Caz hasn't already supplied?

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 2:24 pm 
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Harry Vallence
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Location: Within the old Carlton recruting zone ...
Deano Supremo wrote:
I love how the benefit of hindsight is so eloquently used by many.

Not so many are willing to put their knowledge on the line and say what we should do as opposed to what we should have done.


POW

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 2:28 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick

Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2006 9:51 am
Posts: 4919
Deano Supremo wrote:
Pafloyul wrote:
Well then put them politely into laymen’s terms that people can understand then Cazza instead of blurting them out in an attempt to quash an argument.

Is all of this before you add Saddington into the equation, or after. 8)

In other words, what could be the differance in adding Saddington to the list as apposed to another draftee?


I thought he did?

Salary cap concerns (Sydney paying the bulk of Saddo's contract).

The fact that there wasn't anyone who would offer what Saddo offers - support for Thornton and Teague whil Russell, kennedy etc get up to speed

What other info were you aftre that Caz hasn't already supplied?


I think they need a copy of:

Saddingtons Contract.
A peice a paper on Sydney's letterhead that states they are picking up a majority of his contract.
A sworn affidavit from John Elliot that Carlton are almost at full capacity on the salary cap.

That should keep them happy.

Cazz, surely you could organise this for us all.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 2:28 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko
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Cazzesman wrote:
Synbad wrote:
The problem is because we targetting specific types were not going out to try and target the best players.
We have holes all over the place and a tall HBF with a crook knee.. and a 194 cms ruckman,,,does not do much to change the dynamics of our footy team.

You need players that will make a difference... Thats all im saying!!!

These two were praying will make a difference!!!


Badman we need 1 of everything. This year we had Batson, Deluca, Aisake, and Bryan as ruck asistants to French. Not perfect by any stretch but that is what we had. We got McLaren cheap to help, as a fill in ruckman around the ground. Not ideal but such is life.

We then seelcted Murph, Kennedy and Bower ahead of another young ruck man because the club thought there were more holes to cover in spots these guys could play.
The remaining ruckman after pick 20, who were drafted, were 31 West 198cm, 42 Warnock 204cm, (3-4 years away from AFL) and 58 Minson 202cm.

The simple fact was that these 3 weren't rated highly enough to take over what we already had.

McEntee, Graham and Neaves were taken as rookies. Rowe picked by the Swans wasn't up for grabs. The 3 listed weren't rated as any better than Batson or Aisake either so again they weren't chosen.

The Blues did try hard to get Noble in 2005 but he was pinched at the 11th hour by the Tigers. We got Eddie instead.

We had 6 picks and time will tell if we got some of them right.

You have doubts about Saddo but who would you have picked after pick 20 i.e pick 36, that would be any more of a sure thing than Saddo and his supposed bad knee.

Regards Cazzesman


For those of you that missed it, I've highlighted some of the reasoning that Caz came up with. Not sure what else he could have said.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 2:33 pm 
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Harry Vallence

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Has to be the most ironic thread title I've seen for a while


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 2:37 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan
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Molly wrote:
I'm really puzzled by all of this.
My guess is that Saddo will be an ok pick up for us, and that McLaren won't. Okay - read that sentence again. It said 'my guess...' And that's all it comes down to - a guess. That's all any of you are doing. You're making guesses about how good these guys are going to be.
So let's take out the guesswork, and assess these moves according to the information currently available. That is, let's look at the logic the club used - and much of this has eloquently been put by Cazzesman (who by the way, is under no obligation to provide the inside thinking - and as such we should be praising his thoughts rather than denigrating them), So here goes:

1. We have a list with holes everywhere
2. Two particularly noticeable holes are the backline (talls) and the ruck
3. The draft was weak in 2005
4. We drafted to fix as many holes as we could given (a) the strength of the draft; and (b) our position in the draft. In the end, our drafting was 1 on-baller, two key position players, and one utility (Edwards). It was our belief that depth did not run past about pick number 45.
5. We have an issue with (a) salary cap; and (b) finances overall
6. Hence, no opportunity to make a massive play for a player such as Power in the PSD. Thus recruiting efforts are necessarily limited.
7. However, given the lack of depth on our list, and the need for our young players to develop at their own pace, it was necessary to draft some senior bodies to complement what we already have.
8. Saddington and McLaren fit the bill of: not too expensive, won't add to salary cap problems, have potential to add to ruck and key backline positions.
9: We take Saddington at pick 52 in a draft we believe lacks quality past pick 45 (and I'm probably being generous there)
10: We take McLaren at pick 1 in the PSD when we need ruck back-up for French and there is agreement that the young ruck options in the draft were not gilt-edged opportunities. Only quality player in the PSD was previously ours, and we had shown him the door on discipline issues.

So what do we have? A Tall Backline player and a ruckman who can both play immediately. They don't cost the earth, and they allow Kennedy, Bower, Edwards, Aisake, Hartlett, and Batson to develop at their own rate. We don't kill ourselves salary cap wise, and most importantly we don't endanger any further our financial position. It amazes me that some of those advocating we make the big play for Power are the same people who are advocating massive board changes because our finances are out of order.

In the end, Saddo and McLaren are likely to be prospects to hold positions in the team for the next couple of years while our young players develop. We haven't given up anything for them, and we haven't endangered the financial health of the club to bring them here. They are said to be good role models for our young blokes - they come from clubs who have won four of the past five premierships. I keep seeing that we need leadership - and whilst I don't know if these guys bring us leadership, they sure have been immersed in a winning culture. They've been coached by the best, and they've played with the best. If they even are able to add 10% knowledge of winning football culture to the kids on our list then their recruitment will have paid for itself.

Look, come the end of the year - I fully expect to be bottom three, if not wooden spoon. But will I be cursing and swearing and saying that recruiting these guys have set us back? Well, look at the other options we had.... there just wasn't much on the table.


Wish I'd said that. :roll: Thanks Molly, fine effort at paying attention :lol:

Regards Cazzesman

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 2:39 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick

Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2006 9:51 am
Posts: 4919
Deano Supremo wrote:
Cazzesman wrote:
Synbad wrote:
The problem is because we targetting specific types were not going out to try and target the best players.
We have holes all over the place and a tall HBF with a crook knee.. and a 194 cms ruckman,,,does not do much to change the dynamics of our footy team.

You need players that will make a difference... Thats all im saying!!!

These two were praying will make a difference!!!


Badman we need 1 of everything. This year we had Batson, Deluca, Aisake, and Bryan as ruck asistants to French. Not perfect by any stretch but that is what we had. We got McLaren cheap to help, as a fill in ruckman around the ground. Not ideal but such is life.

We then seelcted Murph, Kennedy and Bower ahead of another young ruck man because the club thought there were more holes to cover in spots these guys could play.
The remaining ruckman after pick 20, who were drafted, were 31 West 198cm, 42 Warnock 204cm, (3-4 years away from AFL) and 58 Minson 202cm.

The simple fact was that these 3 weren't rated highly enough to take over what we already had.

McEntee, Graham and Neaves were taken as rookies. Rowe picked by the Swans wasn't up for grabs. The 3 listed weren't rated as any better than Batson or Aisake either so again they weren't chosen.

The Blues did try hard to get Noble in 2005 but he was pinched at the 11th hour by the Tigers. We got Eddie instead.

We had 6 picks and time will tell if we got some of them right.

You have doubts about Saddo but who would you have picked after pick 20 i.e pick 36, that would be any more of a sure thing than Saddo and his supposed bad knee.

Regards Cazzesman


For those of you that missed it, I've highlighted some of the reasoning that Caz came up with. Not sure what else he could have said.


Not enough, were is the paperwork :P


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 2:41 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick
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Deano supreme wrote:
I thought he did?

Salary cap concerns (Sydney paying the bulk of Saddo's contract).

The fact that there wasn't anyone who would offer what Saddo offers - support for Thornton and Teague whil Russell, kennedy etc get up to speed

What other info were you after that Caz hasn't already supplied?



I was refering to a post quite a few pages back, not the one in referance to your third sentence.

I should have used a quote. Surprising as it may seam, I do value Cazzes imput, but it makes it hard to say anything when it comes across as if Cazza has the final word on everything.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 2:48 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko
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Pafloyul wrote:
Deano supreme wrote:
I thought he did?

Salary cap concerns (Sydney paying the bulk of Saddo's contract).

The fact that there wasn't anyone who would offer what Saddo offers - support for Thornton and Teague whil Russell, kennedy etc get up to speed

What other info were you after that Caz hasn't already supplied?



I was refering to a post quite a few pages back, not the one in referance to your third sentence.

I should have used a quote. Surprising as it may seam, I do value Cazzes imput, but it makes it hard to say anything when it comes across as if Cazza has the final word on everything.


It's hard not to have the final word when you've put your knowledge to the test and made a contribution at club level.

We can all sit around here and circle-jerk as to who we should have and shouldn't have selected, how many of us have put that on the line and approached the club to allow them the benefit of that knowledge?

Caz is the only one I know of. Those of you who reckon that Saddo and McLaren was a balls up put your necks on the line and contact the club, and volunteer the countless hours of watching kids kick the dew off the ground in parts unknown as Caz has done.

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