We've only been s#$t for roughly 2 years on the back of injuries and game evolution, but you know that already.
But good to see you've proved my point.

You know, I was going to throw Lachie Neale out there as the kind of player I had in mind, but I knew the geography would make that a non starter. But if it were possible, he'd be a fantastic culture remedy.

Not sure about Greene, he's such an enigma. Sometimes he seems to lift the team, other times he just does weird shit that makes you scratch your head. I can't tell if he's a leader or not. Perhaps someone with off field knowledge would know. Tim Prendercast should ask "Kingerz" at their next coffee catchup.

Nah, we fluked 22 wins in 28, it's been utterly terrible from go to waah

I'm not sure about Greene either as a leader, but what I do know is he has serious mongrel, something we lack and he can stand up and deliver, something we also lack.
Either way, our vanilla approach has not worked.
Just look at our decision to bring Elijah back in.
From a social perspective, it was a 'heart warming' exercise to re-list him.
But from a business perspective it was an absolute time bomb just waiting to go off.

Your point is nonsense. I can name 6 players on a list that I want moved on and they’ll be different to yours.
Voss can’t coach or manage.
If you lack skills, you practise them as a team, and teach as a unit, no excuses.
If you lack discipline, you double down standards and not allow others to dictate.
If you lack depth in one area of the field, you make sure your recruitment teams identify your requirements.
Time to accept it, he hasn’t done any of the above, and we need a change so we can all move on from this horror show.

The inability to seperate emotion from logic and then proclaim them as facts by some on here is truly amazing at times.

Firstly, name them.
Secondly, in 2023 and 2024 how many players would've you removed from our list?
You have already cited these players as delisting mistakes in another post:
Martin (54 games in 5 years, half of what he produced at the Suns)
Marchbank (56 games in 6 years)
Cunningham (58 games in 9 years)

As for if you lack skills practice them, I 100% agree.
But that has to be player initiated, just look at Petracca.
Team based skill lessons are for under 18s, we are taking about paid AFL players, this is blame differing if I've ever seen it. FMD
Discipline can only be installed by coaching intermittently during games, the rest is up to on-field leadership and if you haven't worked it out yet, we have none. Voss always refers to players playing their roles, he pointed at Binns a told him to play his $%$% role. That is about as much as a coach can do, the rest is up to the individual.
Addressing lack of depth takes time and sometimes the recruiting team makes its own call based on other needs i.e. Houston. So you can't solely blame Voss for that.
I'm going to go back and analyse the last 5 years of drafts for you.

Again, a lot of pointing elsewhere and about to dump recruiting but no accountability.
Voss asks and gets the type of player he wants. If Houston wasn’t traded for, there could be a reason such as salary or trade price.

Wrong or right, Austin drafted and traded Smith, Hayward, Ainsworth, Florent and even Chesser. All players that can add to our team with something we needed, more so than one Houston, but sitting here, can you seriously tell me they have all assisted in our new updated game change?

Wasted trades.

No, that is pointing elsewhere.
That was a turning point in our list, I have spoken about this before.
Get Houston, then we might have kept JSOS and Charlie and then TDK might have questioned how much money is worth over getting a flag.
I'm not saying that Houston was the missing piece, but that half back role is a missing piece and for the older players a proven mature AA player was the solution, especially when we were in our 'window' and hampered by injuries that year. The loss of Newman just made it even worse.
Also in saying this Jagga was also the right decision to address our shortcoming in the middle.

I agree more players were better than one, but that is in hindsight and keeping our current circumstances in mind.
Smith has played 8 games of AFL, I didn't expect him to be the golden egg given the players around him, the speed of the game and his injury last year.
Hayward has been a little disappointing, but when you have a midfield that can't transition or kick I am not surprised.
Florent seems to be kicking into gear, he had a good game last week.
Ainsworth has been the standout of the 3 but he's also subject to our midfield.
Chesser has been a flop so far, very disappointing.
Again he is a player drafted to fill a position we lack the right player (wings) with little capital to do so.
As for helping the updated game plan, I think they are all upgrades, some delivering, some not.
But what we have seen is a massive drop in form/exposure from our senior players, especially our so called A graders.
And that is hurting us more than the additions IMO and we don't even have injuries as an excuse.

Ok Surrey, here goes it, sorry for the length.

Based on the rhetoric Voss built this list for a slow contested game or he hasn’t added depth.

2022 - 9th
When Voss took over he stated that it was a clean slate and he gave everyone a chance to show what they had before years end.
At the end of season, the wings were addressed as weak spots and the following list changes were made:
Traded in Acres and traded out Setterfield
Drafted in Hollands, Cowan, Binns and Lemmey
Demoted Cottrell and O’Brien to rookies and promoted Kennedy (in the eyes of some an A Grade mid) and Honey from the rookie list.
No A graders.

2023 - 5th
After arguably our best season this century we lost in the prelim to the eventual Premiers.
We lost in the contest and lacked the firepower to win the game.
So we all thought the list needed some tinkering but we were in our window.
At the end of season, we addressed our lack of fire power from our medium players.
So with little draft capital we added Fantasia and Elijah.
Drafted in Moir, Wilson and Carroll in the rookie draft.
We let O’Brien, Honey and Philp go and traded out Dow and Fisher.
Ed Curnow and Plowman retired also.
No A graders.

2024 - 8th
We still made the finals, but we were crippled with injuries and this was addressed at the end of year, the list needed durability.
IIRC one game we had 26 players to choose a 23 man team.
The Hawks also started playing their fast transition game and it was noticed by some clubs and the AFL.
Unfortunately for us we already had 4 slow mids (all added before Voss - Cripps, Hewett, Cerra and Kennedy) in our rotation built for contested football but the priority was injuries even though the signs were there for the need for speed.
At the end of season, we addressed injuries.
We delisted our injury prone players;
Martin (54 games in 5 years almost half of what he produced at GCS)
Cunningham (58 games in 9 years)
Marchbank (56 games in 6 years)
Jack Carroll - he had little impact in the team with a 10 disposal avg. over 15 games.
We then traded out Kennedy because he wanted more midfield minutes and he was told he was 5th in line behind Cripps, Walsh, Cerra and Hewett.
Seeing the change in speed Voss wanted an A grade mid, Jagga was the target.
Voss also wanted Houston to address the speed off the backline but that was over-ruled.
I’m not sure if any mature players were targeted for the midfield but I don’t recall any names.
With the little draft capital we had we did get Hayes though as a UFA.
We also added, HOF and the Campo twins in the draft.
We lost Owies who was our best small at the time who if we are honest has not been that great since (16 games last year and only 3 this year at the Eagles).
His loss was the epitome of how bad our forward line has been.
Jagga and possibly HOF as the only A graders, but still kids.

2025 - 11th
More teams adopted the transition game plan.
In the pre-season it was noticeable the change in game plan to try and have more of a transitioning game style and after the first 6 rounds it was apparent that we were having trouble delivering it as a playing group, coupled with the loss of Newman for the season, the loss of experience (even though injuries prevented them from playing anyway) and more injuries. The kids added to the games at the end of the year showed some promise but it was still not enough to move the needle and we only had wins over other bottom of the ladder teams.
We were still too slow and lacked both transition and skill, especially our delivery into F50 from our now even more exposed midfield.
We still needed speed and skill in the middle, better transition players in half backs, wings and half forwards.
At the end of season we addressed our lack of transition and half forwards but at a huge expense.
We lost Charlie (the better tall and an A grader), TDK (an athletic ruck and an A grader) and JSOS who was becoming a top defender.
Doc retired (a year too late), we delisted Fantasia and Cincotta removing more injury prone players and let go of Lemmey, Binns, Elijah and White for list space.
We also needed a lot of capital for our FS and NGA commitments and went about getting them.
In came Dean, Ison and Byrne.
For transition (and age gap issues) we added Florent (HB/wing), Hayward (HF), Ainsworth (Small HF) and Chesser (wing).
We also added Reidy to cover the loss of TDK with the little capital we had.
Still no A graders apart from Dean, but at least we addressed the mid age gap and added some solid B graders and a potential C bettering our bottom 6.

2026 - currently 16th
We added new coaches and have tried again with the transition game plan, which has now become the norm and needed to win games.
Unfortunately we still have 3 slow mids when we can clearly only have 1 at the most given the current style of play and further changes to speed the game up.
After 4 years of not adding A graders to the midfield, gun half back flankers, a gun small (Byrne could be) or a player with X factor that can rip teams apart we are struggling. But the biggest loss for me is the lack of on-field leadership, I have been saying for several years now we needed to add players at the end of their careers that have played in premiership teams to lead on field.
And now we have issues with our tall stocks.
As a result we have chaos especially in the forward line as there is no leadership and our lack of skills and speed in the middle is killing the rest of the team and our only hope is a 19 year old kid.
I also seriously can’t understand the angst of dropping Hewett, I’d prefer him to Cripps ATM, but imagine that from the same people whinging about Hewett.
We just can’t have both in the middle and Cerra is proving to be a liability also, plus tell me if Hewett is so good, where would he fit in the current Swans lineup?
Hopefully Hewett comes in this week and blows us all away, especially in front of goals.
One of the other issue that has been mentioned is structure and for that you need roles, but how can we have solid roles when we don’t have the right players to fill them.
Our midfield is lacking we all know this, the whole football world does, so we are getting players from other positions to try and make us more competitive and play a transition game like the rest of the AFL.
You cant’ have stability until you have players playing in consistent roles and you can’t have that until you have the right players.
And for me that starts with the right players around the ball creating opportunities and transition.
A ruck always has first hand on the ball, that is the start.

I am sure I’ve missed plenty in my haste to write this but I think you get the gist of it, our list has holes.
Some can be fixed by players stepping up and some need to be added to from trading or the draft.

JSoS, Charlie and even TdK to some extent, would have stayed if Voss was moved on. Fact.

As for blaming our leaders, Cripps, Weitering and Walsh are good people but have never been led or steered correctly.
Our club has been in a loser mentality for decades, all we talk about is high draft picks to save us and how to lose to get them. Getting in top picks will save us and make us great. It’s the only way yet, everyone keeps ignoring that no one is prepared to set the standards for these guys to follow and as you even said. It’s up to the players to do that. How WRONG can you be!!

Standards and success starts off field by Football bosses and coaches. Players just follow and adhere to expectations.
Anyone think otherwise is mistaken and never been part of a successful football team.

The great Robert Walls to name one, would never have let the players dictate. They can have their say, but in the end, he knew what was wrong and what was needed and pulled them all in line. Premiership coach who led from the front.

Voss was a great player and it seems a good leader but he is not a good coach.

Just to add to your nonsense, we don’t play a modern game, and if you look at the midfield pace of last nights two teams, (Fremantle and Hawthorn) again as an example, it has nothing to do with that excuse. Creating space is something our coach has no idea about and obviously our players have had just as much of him as the supporters watching.

The same way Melbourne fluked a premiership and have been utterly terrible otherwise this century?

The same way the Bulldogs fluked a premiership and have been utterly terrible otherwise this century?

Spot on, imagine if we'd had both Houston and Newman for the last few years leading rebound and transition off half back? JSOS, Charlie, and maybe TDK would have stayed.

Our biggest problems are transition off half back, midfield speed, and a leaping ruck to complement Pittonet (it would also be handy to have a replacement for Pittonet).

Voss tried to fix the first issues with Houston, hasn't had a chance with the second, and the third was taken out of his hands by the ridiculous saints offer to TDK. I don't content that Voss is the answer or he should stay on, but you can't blame him for those listed issues.

There's no rush. Its all about timing, and lining up the ducks.

Doesn't matter what threats some supporters (not necessarily paying Members) make, changing the coach will happen when it suits the club.

Be careful what you wish for, and when.

The biggest dilemma the club faces is whether to end up with the spoon or not. That is in our hands.

Do we continue to play in the manner we have, failing to win games from a winning position or, hope/ plan for losses against Weagles, Effendopes and Tigers, guaranteeing us of spoon, if, as expected we fail in all other games?

AFL changed Drafting Rules in 2025, and stuffed us up when we had Dean in our sights, and this year with further change to Draft rules (again), we will pay double with Walker in our sights. Effectively 2 unproven 18yo have cost us 4 first round picks, with not much left to improve our Trading in 2026.

Feels like the 2002 Draft Penalties all over again to me.

We will end up bottom 4. This is when we ask ourselves what are we after?

In a nutshell, our Dilemma is whether we prefer to have: No 1 and 3 picks plus a Trade OR Walker and a couple roughies with our 2 late picks?

If we don't end up bottom,
we match the Walker selection with our 2 Firsts, leaving us 2 x 2nd rounders, and a 3rd rounder (ie not much draft capital, to Trade, with 2 more picks to make from the Draft/roughie outside the Draft.

vs

If we end up bottom of the ladder
we can get ourselves the freak ruckman (imo better than Kreuzer), Harry Van Hattum, a hulking ruck who topped the Talent League testing for the running vertical jump, he is the modern-day ruck who can leap, take marks, impact as a fourth midfielder and impact forward of the footy. Think Luke Jackson. Furthermore, we push Walker to pick 3 where we can use our remaining first round pick plus our 2nd round pick, AND, have a 2nd round and third round pick for a couple roughies from Draft/ WAFL/SAFL/VFL, or use the 2nd and 3rd to Trade for a good player.

I dont like tanking, but I despise the AFL and the disdain it sows towards Carlton even more, and prefer to play and develop kids for the remainder of the year, and try players in different positions if that means Tanking. ie Vossy's tenure is no longer an issue if he is directed to play the kids and develop players, trialling different positions, or he is sacked if he strays from that directive.

At this stage we know Vossy will be sacked, but we dont know when.

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Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

I just read this Sidey. I'm with you on this.

We lost quality KP players TDK, SOS and Charlie and didnt replace them. We did the same when we didn't replace discarded injury prone Best 23 players KP player Marchbank, Martin, Cuningham etc.

The Trade gives us player #2 and # 3 in the Draft and Draft capital (2026, 27 & 28) to Trade for new players, and a war chest to pay for a FA or two or three over the next 2 years.

We need to do this and do this effectively if we are going to improve quickly, or else, we are in rebuild mode, and that will take years through the Draft with compromised Drafts in forthcoming years.

Reset, and Top up is the smart way to go. Think when Pies bottomed out to get Thomas and Pendlebury. For us its McHattum and Walker and 3 FA and Trades. Our fortunes will change over night if that happens imo. Our playing group just needs a couple good additions and a new coach in 2027 to change attitude and confidence.

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Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

I just read this Sidey. I'm with you on this.

We lost quality KP players TDK, SOS and Charlie and didnt replace them. We did the same when we didn't replace discarded injury prone Best 23 players KP player Marchbank, Martin, Cuningham etc.

The Trade gives us player #2 and # 3 in the Draft and Draft capital (2026, 27 & 28) to Trade for new players, and a war chest to pay for a FA or two or three over the next 2 years.

We need to do this and do this effectively if we are going to improve quickly, or else, we are in rebuild mode, and that will take years through the Draft with compromised Drafts in forthcoming years.

Reset, and Top up is the smart way to go. Think when Pies bottomed out to get Thomas and Pendlebury. For us its McHattum and Walker and 3 FA and Trades. Our fortunes will change over night if that happens imo. Our playing group just needs a couple good additions and a new coach in 2027 to change attitude and confidence.

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Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

Tanking got Pies a Flag within 2 years.

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Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

Plenty of evidence things can turnaround quickly. All I'm hearing is its the coach the players aren't playing for, or, his Game Plan doesn't suit the group. WE know most of the players are better than what they are showing in 2nd halves.

Lets get the best of both worlds...keep coach till close to end of year, or give him his notice with 4-6 weeks to go as we languish last on ladder. Vossy will resign rather than be sacked. he's not going to do any harm to his future Head coach prospects after 2 failed goes at it.

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Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

From September 2023, FWIW.

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Hope your footy team wins.