And if Hawks miss the 8 this year can we say their recruitment is Shiite

Sent from my SM-F956B using Tapatalk

_________________
If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

Thanks for straightening up my story big buddy. Sounded good, didn't it?!

2022, 2023, 2024 and 2025 merges into one for me. Same issues repeating, despite finally chopping contracted injury prone players at the end of last year, effectively pointing the finger at Andrew Russell, who was also shown the door. How could both be the problem rather than one and not the other. Doesn't make sense, because it isn't a sensible hypothesis.

I'm guessing I got that ability to merge from those posters who enjoy merging 2024 and 2025 to show Vossy's win loss record, well, not for the year, but for a specific time and date within those 2 years, starting since our last run of wins in 2024 .... to suit their agenda....to point the finger at the coach, and try and convince me, nothing else counts. Yeah right. You can take that kind of logic and stick it ....

My agenda is to put injury back into the discussion as the root of our failure, and a serious subject not to be scoffed at. Its based on FACTS over a 4 year period, rather than having to be force fed the cop out line whish isn't Carlton specific: "All teams suffer from injuries". That to me is like saying birds and humans are the same species because they both have lungs. FMD. This is TC not a kindergarten where small minds gather ..... speaking of Kindergarten, I said before season started Austin has collated a Kindergarten List and could field a whole team of kids under 23yo. That's the another issue, the coach haters wont acknowledge. Always finger pointing for a scapegoat.

Back to the Cats game in 2024, yep, that was a 10 goal win around this time of the year. Amazing how that game is easily ignored because those wins actually represent (Carlton under Voss) the ABILITY to beat the best with enough fit players available to action the Game Plan and win comfortably, with only Cottrell, Cerra and Martin missing (plus O'Keefe and Carroll)....and players like Harry, Charlie, Cottrell Walsh and Elijah stuggling with their fitness, mental or physical underdone, or both....and 4 20yo kids.

Looking back at this year's Cats game, which we also won, but yes, by only 3 goals. Hang on. We beat a Flag favourite with only Newman, Kemp, Smith, Fantasia and Cincotta missing (and Duffy). Here's how effective we were in this year's game:

From afl.com.au

End of Q3







Start of Q4







Mid Q4







Didn't win by 10 goals but had 10 more shots at goal (includes 2 OOF), depite losing two injury prone players in the last quarter to give Cats a chance.

I may have got the margin wrong, but no one could forget Carlton missing a lot of easy shots at goal that night: White kicked 3 behinds, Cripps 2 behinds, Charlie 1 and 1 OOF.....we should have won by 10 goals such was our dominance with 22 players fit to play......then .... our injuries let the Cats back into the game.

Carlton were the dominant team vs Cats in both years, 2024 & 2025, when our injuries at a manageable level going into the game and the Cats resurgence during the game happened when we lost 2 important Best 22 players.

Thank you for the opportunity to put the reason for the results back on the agenda.

_________________
Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

The tragedy is we're back to yet again discussing the future of the coach(es), recruiting history, impending other off-field changes and ladder position in relation to (possible) top 10 draft pick.
Oh and the obligatory messiah.
And it's only July.

_________________
I just want my old club back ... (edit) maybe I have!

That said, agree there is cause for optimism for next year.
Jagga, some astute off-field appointments (wave your wand Wrighty) and the perennial wish for a better run with injuries.
Another year for HOF/HOK etc.

_________________
I just want my old club back ... (edit) maybe I have!

Can I remind you tap that from the DRAFT, SOS used 7 first round picks on midfielders, and Austin has used 2 first round picks on midfielders.
Austin also used 8 Draft picks on 7 small forwards plus Moir.

Carlton started their rebuild in 2015. In 2015, Hawks had just won their 3rd Flag in a row.

The combination of the number of Injuries and a lack of depth to cover those injuries seem to be the only difference between Carlton and Hawks since Hawks had Sam at the helm in 2021.

in 2025 Carlton lost to Hawks when Carlton had 11 out injured, Hawks 7 out (4 kids)
In 2024 Carlton lost to Hawks when Carlton had 11 out injured, and by last Qtr only 1 on the bench v Hawks 6 out (4 kids),
In 2023 Carlton beat the Hawks when Carlton had 9 out injured v Hawks 4 out (1 kid)
In 2022 Carlton beat Hawks by 1 point, when Carlton had 12 out injured v Hawks (5 kids)
In 2021 Carlton beat Hawks by 23 points when Hawks stripped back their list and Sam Mitchell started. Carlton had 12 out injured v Hawks (6 kids)

Yeah, Nah.

There's only one obvious explanation for our performances since 2022: Injury. Nothing else but injury before game and during games.

Why?

Did we recruit players mad of crepe paper?

We know SOS loved a bargain and he had a habit trading for injury prone players: McGovern, Martin.

SOS not only targeted injury plaguedplayers to Trade in, but he also used a first round pick on Kemp, who wasn't playing due to an ACL., and out now, with another one.

Moral to the story: Cheap is expensive

And posters expect us to believe like they want to, that injury and a lack of depth has made no impact on the team since 2021, after SOS' 66 game rebuild, let alone since our run ended in 2024.

_________________
Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

@bondi knew you'd enjoy it I, too, had a chance to review the timeline of that 3-goal win, but I failed to notice those injuries, which indeed precipitated a three-goal swing against and match-losing momentum.

I agree that injuries seem to be at the start of every decline. It's bloody frustrating that we can never get a clear run that lets us assess what else is going wrong or right. Chances are that the coaching is still a problem: why can't the system sustain itself, why can we never regain the upper hand when fortunes turn (that Geelong win being the notable exception), where did the spate of "personal issues" come from, why do the players burn each other and not fly the flag, etc. But I've consistently been against sacking Voss because it obfuscates the other (actual?) root causes and, at worst, can lead to the wrong long term signings when a "new manager bounce" is mistaken for genuine reform.

Could be a silver lining kenny. We may become a bit more realistic with our gaps.

Don't tell keogh and braithy but.....

We have no need to blow the place up and back the club to not sit on its hands and find ways to fix our issues, and look at the future with optimism:

We have a Spine

Weitering
Silvagni
Curnow
McKay

We have a midfield group

Cripps
Walsh
Cerra
Hewett
Jagga
Williams


We have the running wings:

Cottrell
Hollands

We have good kids coming through (may need cover for 2026, but should be AFL ripe for 2027, if not 2026:

Cowan
O'Keefe
O'Farrell
Moir
Carroll
Lemmey??
Wilson ??

We have Father sons and NGA's to look forward to:

2026 Dean Ison
2027 Walker
2028 Scotland and Abdullah
2029 Kouta, Johnston, Garlett
2029

We have a full set of picks in 2025, 2026 and 2027 we can Trade this year (assuming TDK has left the building)

3 First Round
3 Second Round
4 Third Round
3 Forth Round

_________________
Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

Yes , fools never learn . Hear we are 25 years later saying the same old stuff .

_________________
All my dangerous friends

Cheers GE

I'm probably agree with your position.
I refuse to jump at shadows. WE need a measured response to our health. Any more mistakes and they will set us even further back if we don't nail the root cause. We can turn this around, but we need to make every decision a winner. Your last line is so apt.

I know the club is a very different one to the beast keogh has been traumatised by in 2002 when the shit hit the fan in Wayne Brittain's first year, where the poor fella was expected to get wins when at one stage he had 23 players out injured.....but the finger was pointed at the coach Wayne Brittain for our failure, when it was the list. Did Pagan do any better with a list of more resilient players? No. He had the worst list to try and win more than just a Wizard Cup.

Not enough quality on the list means one thing: Forget Finals, Forget Flags. Find players capable of executing a Game Plan.

I have no doubt the Board, like us, want the best for the club. I don't believe in any conspiracy theories about Mathieson and The Board. I know they are just theories. That's so far in the past, only one person I know in Australia, and its keogh who seems to keep clinging onto the past Board Members mistakes/ culuture. That was 23 years ago. Things moved forward with better leadership at the helm, and results proved that.

When Pratt accepted the Presidency in 2007, after we finished 16th, and cornered/ bullied into a debt, which can be credited to the corrupt officials in the AFL Commission at the time, he famously said, "Get the Best"..... " if they aren't working, they are not in demand".

From Blueseum.



Despite getting the best off field to run the club and coach the team, the list was short of good players (other than Judd and his 3 No 1 Picks, and the 3 Amigos, to provide any coach with any success. But we did get off the bottom after his first year to make 11th in 2008, 7th in 2009, 8th in 2010, 5th in 2011 (and got ripped off by umpire in last minute of game ), then started the slide back down.

I thought Ratten did fantastic with what he had at his disposal. I credit Ratten for engineering something similar to the Richmond game plan that won them 3 Flags, but he lacled the cattle too...just as Voss does 23 years later.

_________________
Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

Fast forward 10 years since the start of SOS' 66 game rebuild for sustained success, anyone can admit, he, not the Board, not Andrew Russell, not Bolton, not Teague, but he missed so many players with his Draft selections. In fact, far worse than I posted above, because I didn't count Walsh, pick 1, a few other mids, let alone the small forwards SOS drafted: Polson, De Bois, Gallucci, Honey, Gibbons, Owies, Ramsay......

Give the next coach a more balanced list and we might get success.

After SOS bought 58 players to the club via Trade and Draft, we have only 11 players left on our list, and only 10 next year when TDK turns his back on us, maybe 9 if SOS can get our first rounder, Kemp for a 3rd rounder.

Cripps and Doc were at Carlton before the SOS chainsaw massacre.

No one can ignore the fact this was not good List Management, that was our foundation for sustained success is 11 from 58 players hand picked by SOS. I will never defend SOS record. Complete failure. Got a bit lucky to have 2 first rounders and Curnow running away from cops before Draft.

Lets get the bottom of our biggest issues that seem to be repeating itself. Its the List that's the problem. Austin hasn't landed us a really huge win from the Draft either imo, other than Smith. I also like the prospects O'Farrell, Cowan, Hollands, Cincotta (rookie) and O'Keefe after 5 fkn years. That's it: 6 players. That's another failed List Manager imo.

But by all means shield SOS and Austin and blame the coach. Lets see if that works.

We need players who can improve our on our 2025 Preseason Best 23.

I can see after 10 years of recruiting 58 players by SOS, and 31 players by Austin, we need to replace TDK, and still improve on 6 Best 23 players AND add a couple more for to improve our depth too. That is doable. If not in one year (and it can if we have done the work behind the scenes with 17 players coming out of contract in 2025), or it may take a 2nd Trade period to nail our needs on the List.

Players like Gov, Haynes, Pitto, Acres, Kemp, Boyd, Young and Young should be our depth in 2026, to help the kids, and not put too much strain on their old bodies before they are delisted at the end of 2026 and 2027 and replaced by better players. I know Haynes will probably deserve to be our 3rd Tall Defender in 2026, but at 34yo next year, he should be depth, but until we find better, he's a keeper.

_________________
Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

So , the recruiter is more important than the Coach . Yep , if he don't get it right and provide the cattle then any Coach is pushing cow droppings uphill . Think you might be onto something Bondi . Good detailed post .

_________________
All my dangerous friends