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PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2025 6:16 pm 
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Stephen Silvagni

Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:03 am
Posts: 25541
Location: Bondi Beach
Blue Vain wrote:
Sadly I suspect a lot of our issues revolve around on field/playing group leadership and everyone else will once again carry the can. Crippa is as dedicated as anyone but what sort of leaders do we have? Everything I hear revolves around conciliation, connection and "sticking fat". But is there accountability and challenge when required? You can't just wrap your arms around people when they continually make the same errors. The players are not there as a support group. They are playing elite sport that comes with responsibility.

The list? Yes our list has holes and the game has evolved significantly this season, but we've dominated games this year for quarters or halves, just rarely 4 quarters. When momentum goes against our players, they don't appear to have the resilience to stop it. Is it preparation by the coaches tactically and psychologically? Winning 11 of 15 first quarters suggests not to me. Outscoring the opposition 52.46 to 37.33 in first quarters suggests not.
So our game style can dominate games but not for 4 quarters. It would suggest the answer lies somewhere between concentration, fitness, resilience or leadership.

If it's coaching or strategy. You'd suggest teams would know our weaknesses and have our measure from the start of games. Everyone would know our tactical inability, train it during the week and take advantage. But that rarely happens. We're the team that dominates early in games.
Others say our players don't have the skill to connect with our forward 50 or to convert on the scoreboard. Yet last year, this playing group (with minimal changes) was the 4th highest scoring team of the year. If we'd scored 1 more point per game, we'd have been number 2 scoring team in the AFL!
How does the team that is largely the same drop off so much? You don't lose your skill overnight.

The calls for board change are also nonsense IMHO. The board is there to appoint quality people, stay out of their way and to provide quality governance. Financially the club is the healthiest it has been for 30 years. The board employed a man recognised as one of the greatest CEO's in the history of our game. (Cook). He rubber stamped the appointment of Voss and the board ratified the decision. Thats the way it should be. Stay out of it and let your people do their job.

Tactically I believe the coaches have done a reasonable job. We were being flogged with ball movement in 2023 so we adapted and became one of the best in the AFL. We were a high scoring team in 2024 but we leaked goals so we adapted. Our defending, defensive transition etc have improved markedly.
So is the answer the inability of the coaches to find a balance between strengths and weaknesses or the players inability to adapt?
It has to be one or the other. Statistics suggest the coaches know the mechanisms and strategies to change game styles as required. It's a matter of whether we are chasing the pack retrospectively or perhaps the players can't reconcile it themselves during games.

IMHO, the answer lies majorly with the playing group. The coaches are not there to hold their hands during games and provide them with answers mid quarter. They are full time athletes. They would attend more meetings and lectures than they care for. Training is designed to build instinct through repetition. They know what to do strategically.
But do the players truly demand a response from themselves and each other when required?
When Cripps is being flogged in the centre square or refusing to run defensively, do any of his team mates say "that's no where near good enough, get out of the middle and give someone else a go"?

Does anyone tell Weitering that when he drops off Taylor Walker at defensive 50 and watches Walker put it over his head for a goal that he's not doing his job properly?

It's interesting that people are talking about players who give 100% no matter the state of the game. Ot those who give a shit, demand better and show leadership and resilience when it counts. Defenders who defend like their life depends on it. (Haynes, Newman, Silvagni).
Forwards who sacrifice for others. Block opposition defenders so their team mates can win the contest instead of them (Fogarty, Williams)
Midfielders who work hard both ways and will sacrifice their own game to stop an opposition player at the expense of their own game (Hewett). Is it coincidence that apart from Silvagni, they all learnt what it takes to be a team player, at other clubs?

IMHO, we have the majority of the talent required. We have mostly good coaches. We need better standards, expectations and resilience from those who lead the playing group on field. I think it was Bondiblue who recently said something along the lines of, "if you can't change the people, change the people".


Amen. :thumbsup:

The one skill I do question, and it should have been fixed 5 years ago was kicking set shots for goal. In particular, our prefessional KPF's, Charlie and Harry have let us down badly this year, but its not new. They have yet to develop a set routine that you could back like we could with Lockett and Dunstall as the benchmarks, but also like all good forwards do today. I've been a bit hard on those two, but I'm just a reflection of the broader base on this point. The fact of the matter it can be fixed. Not by them on their own. They need a bonafide kicking coach. Then who? Get the best FFS. Why haven't we? We lost 6 games this year because we missed set shots at goal. They call that a lack of nourishment. We should have had 10 wins on the board, but lets hope this time to reflect with Graham Wight taking the helm and TDK most likely leaving the group.

I'm sure skills drop off for VFL standard players at the next level. The pressure at AFL level is ferocious and it seems they are rushed because they haven't adapted to the level, or developed enough in the VFL. I still think we gift too many games. That looks to be because we dont have the depth to cover the injured. We can see we need to add a few more skilled players who can help improve our connection.
Great you mentioned Fogarty. He's another I pigeon hole with the rest of the "ordinary" small forwards, unfairly, to make the point about an excess of smalls on the list. He plays an amazing role, and its the other zippy small who should be ripping it up.

Concentration, fitness, resilience or leadership are all player qualities we require from our players to execute the game plan. Our best 23 has proven to be a formidable group since 2023, but the gaps need to be filled where age is natural attrition, and depth capable of putting 4 quarters together.

We have enough kids. Too many imo. I don't mind turning them over if its an improvement. But we definitely need to add better players to the list, who can make this group click again.

Leadership (or a lack of) is something you pointed out last year. It continues to be an issue. Who will hold them accountable?

I agree the coaches have the levers, and they at times have adjusted them a bit too much, but they have them. The players get it, and believe in the game plan, and they've seen it work, when we have a competitive outfit on the field (less than 8 out injured) but some players have given up on themselves, they stopped giving effort, probably because they know they haven't got the resilience to give it for 4 quarters, and others, more experienced have given up maximum fight (other than the ones you mentioned) because the weaker have given up the fight.

I don't think we are far off. This year we were derailed early by Sayers and injury, and lost confidence after a string of defeats, and recently players have just stopped in their shoes. Its a Football Dept issue. Its one of those 4 reasons: Concentration, fitness, resilience or leadership.

Good onya.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2025 6:36 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 10:35 am
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SurreyBlue wrote:
What if our players just can't play the 'contested game plan' for 4 quarters and hence why dominate early in games, or deep down, they believe they will get run over by the opposition as the game progresses, hence why you see them give up in the 2nd half, as they have nothing left to offer?
What if the players have approached the coaching group to modify the system but nothing is being changed?

Just a thought / consideration from the player's side.


Maybe. But it's interesting we can go on consecutive runs of 8-9 games dominating in recent seasons playing a contested game plan but can't physically put together more than 2 quarters now. :?

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2025 7:10 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan
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Location: threeohfivethree
I actually think everybody’s probably right in some regard in this thread. The idea that it’s one thing holding us back is clearly wrong or it’d be fairly easy to identify and correct. I read these posts and I agree with almost all of them even though they often disagree with each other.

The main thing I see with the club with my own eyes though is an inability to truly acknowledge that there’s something wrong.

When John Elliott brought David Parkin back to Carlton in 1991 he was also being courted by Sydney. He spoke to both clubs. Parkin asked both clubs where they thought they were at.

The Swans (Mike Willesee was president at the time) gave a rave review of their club and the playing list and said they thought the only real missing element was a great coach and that flags would follow.

Elliott when asked said we’re actually a bit rubbish and there’s a fair bit of work to be done.

Parkin signed with Carlton as he believed we were the club that had a grasp of reality. It took him three years to get into a grand final and five to win one. This is a coach who’d won three previously.

If Austin thought we had the second best list in the competition last year then I’m staggered. Top 8 list maybe but we were a fair way from second. And that’s from a guy whose job it is to build the list.

It seems to me that for those who work there there’s an inability to truly recognise where we are as a club over the last couple of decades.

We recognised the financial issues and fixed them which is pretty straightforward as they’re just numbers in columns but psychology and culture and football departments are complicated and the first step to building great ones is to accept that you’re not one of them.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2025 9:32 pm 
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Ken Hunter
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Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 8:32 am
Posts: 10622
Blue Vain wrote:
SurreyBlue wrote:
What if our players just can't play the 'contested game plan' for 4 quarters and hence why dominate early in games, or deep down, they believe they will get run over by the opposition as the game progresses, hence why you see them give up in the 2nd half, as they have nothing left to offer?
What if the players have approached the coaching group to modify the system but nothing is being changed?

Just a thought / consideration from the player's side.


Maybe. But it's interesting we can go on consecutive runs of 8-9 games dominating in recent seasons playing a contested game plan but can't physically put together more than 2 quarters now. :?


Agree. We have the talent, we know we can do it, as we did it for a couple of years.
So, if it’s not belief in the process, then it’s other teams have worked out our system, and we haven’t counter punched.
Unfortunately, anyway I look at it, it’s coaching and our game plan and therefore the players don’t believe in it.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 04, 2025 1:20 pm 
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Rod Ashman

Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2006 8:22 am
Posts: 2770
keogh wrote:
17th Premiership wrote:
I can see this has happened repeatedly over a long enough period to suggest there is something systemic at our club.
It has happened when we had good players and average players. Well credentialed coaches, fresh coaches, experienced coaches and younger coaches.

I appreciate that a lot of the rot starts at the top but can someone please explain how experienced and competent football people keep being undermined, dominated or persuaded by these millionaire ‘supporters’ behind the scenes?

How are these people influencing the key decision makers at Carlton and how does this keep affecting our on-field performance so profoundly? Can someone please explain how this works at Carlton, and how it works at a better run club?

(I kind of get it at the surface but I genuinely don’t understand, clearly, in a practical sense…)


Money yields power
And many people bend over backwards for it
Kiss arse for it
Call it whatever
It’s a sad fact of life
It worked at VFL level 40 years ago
But in the last 25 years it simply doesn’t mean success at AFL level
An example of how it effects the way the team’s performance
Malthouse wanted Carrazzo as captain but he was told Murphy will captain
This despite Malthouse coaching a premier where not necessarily the best player was captain in Nick Maxwell
Carrazzo would have made a better captain than Murphy but he was overridden from above
Who should make the decision on who is captain
Clearly the coach particularly one with first hand experience but no Murphy was the better player
Better marketing
Number one draft pick
Blah blah
Having the right leader on the field is vital to success
Murphy was an ordinary captain
So is Cripps
He ain’t hard enough on his own teammates
It’s all about the image of the club being maintained at the expense of making sure every inch is covered for success on field
Have a look at how the club views violence against women
They trott out games to promote the anti-violence message against domestic violence yet are happy to take a profit of a few million each year from poker machines
To keep Bruce happy
And what is one of the major reasons for domestic violence
You guessed it
Problem gambling
Money rules
You might not see it in a workplace directly but if there is a level of hypocrisy of any sort and money is the main objective then it seeps through any organization
And the powers will be good at telling us supporters it’s all ok when the shit hits the fan like it has the last 2 weeks and provide a staged media conference telling us all that it is going to be sorted


Thanks no.8 ;-).
I feel like if the likes of Malthouse, Pagan and Voss find it difficult to stare down the back room powerbrokers (who are pulling the levers at the Board), we have an extremely difficult problem to fix!
I’m an optimist, so hopefully as we have become more financially independent of those powerbrokers, we can appoint more independently minded Board members, who will then allow the key leaders make the decisions they believe are required, against which they can be held accountable. (Assuming, of course, we haven’t built our financial strength on the back of ongoing contributions by those powerbrokers!).
Having said that, everyone loves a winner so hopefully, Wright can make the correct calls, manage the right people in the background, and that produces good results which everyone can get behind. Hopefully…


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 04, 2025 6:26 pm 
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Stephen Silvagni

Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:03 am
Posts: 25541
Location: Bondi Beach
17th Premiership wrote:
keogh wrote:
17th Premiership wrote:
I can see this has happened repeatedly over a long enough period to suggest there is something systemic at our club.
It has happened when we had good players and average players. Well credentialed coaches, fresh coaches, experienced coaches and younger coaches.

I appreciate that a lot of the rot starts at the top but can someone please explain how experienced and competent football people keep being undermined, dominated or persuaded by these millionaire ‘supporters’ behind the scenes?

How are these people influencing the key decision makers at Carlton and how does this keep affecting our on-field performance so profoundly? Can someone please explain how this works at Carlton, and how it works at a better run club?

(I kind of get it at the surface but I genuinely don’t understand, clearly, in a practical sense…)


Money yields power
And many people bend over backwards for it
Kiss arse for it
Call it whatever
It’s a sad fact of life
It worked at VFL level 40 years ago
But in the last 25 years it simply doesn’t mean success at AFL level
An example of how it effects the way the team’s performance
Malthouse wanted Carrazzo as captain but he was told Murphy will captain
This despite Malthouse coaching a premier where not necessarily the best player was captain in Nick Maxwell
Carrazzo would have made a better captain than Murphy but he was overridden from above
Who should make the decision on who is captain
Clearly the coach particularly one with first hand experience but no Murphy was the better player
Better marketing
Number one draft pick
Blah blah
Having the right leader on the field is vital to success
Murphy was an ordinary captain
So is Cripps
He ain’t hard enough on his own teammates
It’s all about the image of the club being maintained at the expense of making sure every inch is covered for success on field
Have a look at how the club views violence against women
They trott out games to promote the anti-violence message against domestic violence yet are happy to take a profit of a few million each year from poker machines
To keep Bruce happy
And what is one of the major reasons for domestic violence
You guessed it
Problem gambling
Money rules
You might not see it in a workplace directly but if there is a level of hypocrisy of any sort and money is the main objective then it seeps through any organization
And the powers will be good at telling us supporters it’s all ok when the shit hits the fan like it has the last 2 weeks and provide a staged media conference telling us all that it is going to be sorted


Thanks no.8 ;-).
I feel like if the likes of Malthouse, Pagan and Voss find it difficult to stare down the back room powerbrokers (who are pulling the levers at the Board), we have an extremely difficult problem to fix!
I’m an optimist, so hopefully as we have become more financially independent of those powerbrokers, we can appoint more independently minded Board members, who will then allow the key leaders make the decisions they believe are required, against which they can be held accountable. (Assuming, of course, we haven’t built our financial strength on the back of ongoing contributions by those powerbrokers!).
Having said that, everyone loves a winner so hopefully, Wright can make the correct calls, manage the right people in the background, and that produces good results which everyone can get behind. Hopefully…


:thumbsup:

Off field, Carlton is a different place than that shell of a place back in 2002 and for the next 5 years.
Sir Richard gave us a breath, and the powerbrokers did their bit to keep us alive.
The AFL forced us to sell our soul.
The AFL needed the powerbrokers for Carlton to survive after the Nuke from AFL Commissioners.

We were a different club by the time covid came. We are a thriving business, with and without powerbrokers.
Until the AFL Commission stamps out gambling money from the sport, the don't have to and use that AFL Commission as the reason.

The problem is the Football Dept. The product.
We haven't had the right Director of Football, to identify the right Football GM.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 04, 2025 9:15 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick

Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2007 10:48 pm
Posts: 4495
Location: Perth
Supposed to be contending. Easy draw.

Rabble. Basket case.

The club is broken, materially broken. Evidently can’t be fixed.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 04, 2025 9:18 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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Location: Prison Island
RIP Carlton.

It’s done.

We are somehow further away from success than at any point this century.

Very little real actual young talent coming through.

No draft picks

Aging overpaid “stars”

No leaders

Clueless coaches

Even more clueless board

Awful football staff department.

Smelly smelly brand.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 04, 2025 9:50 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick

Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2007 10:48 pm
Posts: 4495
Location: Perth
Never ending rebuild. All the pain and humiliation we endured for years and years.

All for one slight and flukey chance in ‘23.

Destined to be perennial cellar dwellars. Can’t convince me otherwise.

How else can you explain this mess?

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 Post subject: 2025 - What do we think?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 04, 2025 11:44 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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Location: Half back flank
It looks to me like the players feel sorry for themselves & want the outside world to agree with them. It just doesn't work like that in a hard nosed, brutal competitive sport like this.

The thing that makes me shudder is we've seen this mentality before, this century, on a number of occasions. And it's usually been at the start of several years at the bottom.

A team that misses tackles isn't trying hard enough.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 04, 2025 11:52 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan

Joined: Thu May 11, 2006 6:11 pm
Posts: 15051
It is hard to believe we have come to this.
We are the laughing stock of the competition.
The players don't seem to care, maybe we supporters should stop caring too.
I would love to know what has happened in the last 12 months for us to be this bad.
I cannot see how Voss can coach again after this season.
We are a broken club that may be beyond fixing.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 04, 2025 11:53 pm 
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Ken Hunter
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Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2005 10:26 am
Posts: 14741
Location: Comparing orange boners with Hirdy
grrofunger wrote:
RIP Carlton.

It’s done.

We are somehow further away from success than at any point this century.

Very little real actual young talent coming through.

No draft picks

Aging overpaid “stars”

No leaders

Clueless coaches

Even more clueless board

Awful football staff department.

Smelly smelly brand.

This is it 100%.
I can't see a way out. It might seem sensationalist, but I struggle to imagine when we'll ever be successful again. The tiger and pies droughts seemed huge back then, but we'll beat them by a long way

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2025 12:04 am 
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Ken Hunter
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Posts: 14765
Location: Sydney
I see no reason we can't/ won't be the next South Melbourne/Sydney (72 years), Footscray (62 years), Melbourne (57), Fitzroy (52 and out), St Kilda (69, 58 and counting), North Melbourne (50)... hell, and those droughts were in a 12-or-fewer team comp! Yep, every chance the flag I saw during my first year of legal drinking could be my last. Wish I'd realised its importance at the time!


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 Post subject: 2025 - What do we think?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2025 4:31 am 
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Bruce Doull
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Players playing like they've checked out but I wonder if coaching staff are in the same boat, knowing the broom is coming. They're human after all.

I haven't felt less upset by a 56 point loss since the tanking years.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2025 6:31 am 
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Rod Ashman

Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2011 10:17 pm
Posts: 2073
The writing was on the wall after Teague was sacked

The so called review wasn’t a review of the club

If it was, how the hell did Lloyd survive

The coaching process was robust right until the final decision. The process found Kingsley the most suitable but no we wanted it both ways and went with Voss.

No real change at Board level where key decision makers from the club’s worst period were still there

Then thinking we had the pieces in place to invest big salary into injury and flaky players. McGovern, Martin and Williams are prime examples.

What did you think was going to happen.

Look at Collingwood. Even spread of talent and are drilled working in a proper system where they can cover for injuries. We invest in long term expensive contracts amongst a few surrounded by speculative rookie and mid season draft picks.

Only real hope is to get serious about what it takes to be a successful modern AFL team.


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