20 games is quite a test sample. we are a trainwreck of a club.

This says it all.

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THEY LIKE TO SEND UP!!!!!!!!

Until each team plays each other the same number of times, the AFL, as a fair dinkum competition, cannot be taken seriously.

He (Mr Swann) said the honour and pride associated with the club's traditional navy blue jumper was priceless.

Simply put we need to start again at the end of this year
The next 4 games are very winnable but even if the club win all 4 it will hide the cracks
The best thing about the GWS game was the kids
Carroll Lord O’Farrell and White all show promise
It’s some of the senior players who need to be moved on at the end of the year

I would trade Walsh and McKay
Walsh seems to have peaked already
He is a very good player but doesn’t hurt the opposition like a Zac Butters
A trade would see a top 10 pick plus salary cap relief
McKay has no hard edge for a big guy and is too inconsistent
He would fetch a top10 pick as well

Cripps would be worth trading
I love the man but he is on the downside
Thrown in players like McGovern Williams Durdinand a few others that we could receive late picks to trade up in the draft or pick some golden nuggets
DeKoning doesn’t have the physical presence of a true ruckman
Free agency will mean 3 picks in the top 10
O’Keefe hopefully becomes something

Give Lemmey Wilson and Charleston some game time this year

The club has never really gone down this path
IMO it has to now because we clearly arnt good enough
We can win the next 4 games against average opposition but it hides the cracks

Just finally admit 25 years we have [REDACTED] up and start again
Watch the club be in denial and we will endure another decade of painful shit

We should trade Cripps to any team he wants to play for. We owe him that.

Unacceptable. Completely unacceptable.

We have huge issues but there has to be meaningful change NOW.

If Lloyd and Voss are still in their jobs post bye we are going nowhere. What are they waiting for? Spoiler alert, it’s not coming.

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We are on our way back...

What’s the saying ‘no matter how far you travel down the wrong road you can always turn around’

Jay Clark article since being 30 points up in the preliminary we are 17 and 17 we are now 18.
Middle of the road team sliding south

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If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

sign up JSOS as soon as possible

piss off every other senior player who doesnt follow his desperation and love for the jumper

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my last one was rubbish

Can’t blame our better players for our slow demise

It’s the major reason why we have won games under Voss

Our lack of depth within the 22 has been an issue since Judd was recruited

We struggle to build a winning squad that can sustain a game plan that encompasses both inside and outside play

Until this changes we will remain middling and will slide to the bottom. Rinse and repeat for the worst club this century.

We are clearly not up to it.
I can’t say for sure whether the players or the coach are the main problem.
I really want to believe in both.
But clearly, one of three things must be true:
1) Voss has a good game plan but the players aren’t able to deliver it (either because the players aren’t up to it or Voss can’t teach/motivate them)
2) Voss’s plan is sh1t and while the players are trying to execute it, it is simply not working
3) The players aren’t able to execute his game plan but even if they could it is still not an effective game plan.

Most of the above points in the direction of Voss although it remains possible that this group of players would fail under any coach.

Bottom line, if I’m Cook/Wright/Priestley, I’m tossing up between replacing the coach or trading out a few key players. Clearly, if we think we have a Premiership list that is underperforming, we might replace the coach. But if we think we need to refine the list, we have a few players with heaps of currency as Keogh highlighted. I wouldn’t trade all of them but I would move on, say, 2-3 of them. But this is a longer term play. If they think we need a complete revamp I.e. if they believe that Weitering/Charlie/Harry will not be around for our next Premiership, then I’d go the full Keogh route.
I think it’s a bit Pollyanna to think we are going through the same as Geelong 2006, Richmond 2016 or Melbourne 2020 but if that is a parallel, surely we need to replace at least two assistant coaches??

I think neither the coach nor the list is good enough, which is why we're always flip flopping and arguing the two.

I don't want us changing coach without changing the core of the list. We've seen enough of this list to know that Cripps, H, CC, ZW, JW, Saad, Newman, Gov etc (focusing on stars/high earners, obviously there are more like Haynes) will not win a flag here, so we should reorient the list towards the next window. I do not want a complete rebuild because of Tasmania, because we have promising f/s prospects coming up who need proper support, and because so many clubs in so many sports follow this blind faith in tank-and-draft that more often than not leads to a terminal loser culture.

That loser culture is plainly evident at Carlton - when watching games live on TV I find myself half-watching half-doomscrolling in the final quarter even when there's less than a kick in it, because I know we don't have the mentality to win. Like Jesse Motlop presented with a moderately difficult crumb-and-goal chance, we're happy to get some 2 parts out of 3 right and just fall short. Can't fault the effort, close enough is good enough, etc.

For this reason, the next phase should not be a total rebuild but there needs to be a purge of those inculcated in the 21st century Carlton way. That means no Cripps, no Walsh, no H/CC, not even Weitering. Of the core, we should prioritise those who grew up in winning cultures. Hewett the obvious one, Newman even though he's old. Struggling to think of others (some have come through even worse formations, like Saad at early GCS and * - heaven help us!) so I would not be looking to trade everyone for draft assets, I would be looking to trade for proven winners, even those getting a bit grey in the beard.

Wright has got his work cut out for him. Don't rush it, don't make the easy choices. If it takes 3-4 years to reshape us into a decent side then so be it. Not like we're going anywhere in that time frame as it stands.

i love jsos. probably the most of anyone here on the board. but ... can he stay healthy? to my memory he's never played a full season?

I’m more inclined to to off load Walsh McKay DeKoning and Cripps for draft picks
That’s for decent picks
That’s for decent picks
2 mids one key forward one key back
Then it’s up to the List Management team to get it right
The club will need to reset
There is enough sample size to suggest it hasn’t worked
Not do any and it’s Brisbanes second rounder and that’s pretty much it
Sacking coaches does not work out at Carlton
Let Voss see out his contract and show how he can start a list from scratch
It’s a radical plan but a conservative list management plan and sacking coaches hasn’t worked

I’m more inclined to to off load Walsh McKay DeKoning and Cripps for draft picks
That’s four decent picks

3 mids one key back
Then it’s up to the List Management team to get it right
The club will need to reset
There is enough sample size to suggest it hasn’t worked
Not do anything and it’s Brisbanes second rounder and that’s pretty much it with the same players
Sacking coaches does not work out at Carlton
Let Voss see out his contract and show how he can start a list from scratch
It’s a radical plan but a conservative list management plan and sacking coaches hasn’t worked in 25 years

I'm going to work with you on this for a moment.

Doesn't mean that I agree, but here's my 2 bobs whilst I'm seething.

The Ruck debate is centred on the choice of having 3 marking targets in the forward line vs 2.
Obviously last year the premise of the 3 marking forwards was based on TDK being the 3rd tall Fwd- Ruck and Pitto No 1, because it couldn't work the other way, with Pitto having zero forward craft to rely on.

TDK going to Saints gets us a 1st round compo pick, but he leaves us with no ruck.

At least Harry could play Fwd tall - Ruck, where Charlie doesn't seem to care about any other position other than his role to lift the arm up as a target point in the square, to invariable lose the contest and watch his opponent waltz out without pressure.

Get rid of Charlie for 2 picks. Good chance to get 2 first rounders.

That's 2 players out for 3 picks.

We need to target a No 1 ruckman, coz it aint going to be Pittonet, or maybe HOK steps up to the mantle.

Who will be our FF and CHF if Harry is the 3rd tall marking forward?

If Cripps or Walsh were gone, we replace one with Rowell.

That gives us O'Keefe (ruck), Cerra, Hewett, Rowell Smith in the middle, and a spare first rounder to do what we want, we still have either Walsh or Cripps. If Cripps can get us draft capital at 31yo, I'd be surprised, but he may get us a young player we desire . Trade Walsh if we have to, for a KPF or Fwd Ruck You still have 2 first rounders, if you like HOK. And plenty of salary cap space.

We don't have to sell the farm to make big changes.

Pies got rid of Grundy because they had a 26yo Cameron who was a decent ruck, Treloar (because of salary cap constraints and knowing Daicos boys were coming) and Stephenson (for salary cap relief). Then it all clicked.

Like I said, I'm seething at this minute, and couldn't give a flower about reputations...I want the top 6 who give their all to win and the bottom 6 who could play 4 quarters and play a decent role in a winning team.

I believe this is Austin's last year. Definitely his contract ends. I think he's chosen to retire come years end rather than be pushed out. I think the club knows that. Do we trust him or Agresta to make big decisions next Trade Draft period?

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Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

The sad part is, Weiters, Walsh, Curnow, Harry were all the fresh start/fresh culture we brought in when we did the total list cut to purge the Malthouse era.

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#DonTheStash

Exactly mate . The heavy lifting has worn them down . And now there own supporters are turning on them .

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All my dangerous friends

Before we go all in trading away our better players the very first list management decision to be made is to get rid of the list manager.

Are you going to trade Charlie Harry Cripps Walsh and Weiters and leave the decision to go to draft on a bloke whose only good selection has been Ollie Holland.
4 drafts and trade period and this is what he has to show for it.
Motlop Moir Lemmey Binns Lord Wilson Carroll Cowan Okeefe Monahan Duffy add to that Fantasia Evans White . All honest triers that are never going to move the needle.

We have to give last years crop a chop out

You can only make the call on the bigger name players if your recruitment department has a good track record and unfortunately ours doesn't

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If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

I am leaning towards agreeing with you Keogh, certainly in the broad strokes. I.e. trade out a few of our ‘stars’, get in some top end draft capital and build from there. I pretty much agree with who you’ve suggested but not sure we would/could do all of those exactly but happy with that or similar.
The challenge in executing that will be to get Voss on board, considering the implications of such a move, or the consequences of it.

It’s a shame because in 2016, it appeared that Richmond had missed its window with the Riewoldt/ Cotchin class of players. And half way through last year, it appeared that Brisbane had missed its window and would have to start again.
However, I just don’t see the competitiveness and footy IQ in our group of ‘stars’ to turn it around.

(That passage of play with Cripps clearly ignoring Ollie broke my heart for what it meant about Cripps; also I can’t remember who kicked to Charlie who did kick the goal but he should have kicked to Durdin alone in the pocket; and several similar passages where we ignored the angle/running player in favour of the long kick forward which highlighted either that the players are incapable of following basic instructions or that Voss was prescribing that approach.)

Nah Mick

They are young fellas, at the peak of their powers. All 28yo, one is 26yo.

Why make excuses about wear and tear?

They look like they are able. Hey, I can even see them sprint every now and then.

Supporters haven't turned on them, they have turned their backs on their supporters: family and fans.

Its OK if its one or two of them, but this week it was our whole fkn spine that went on strike.

I bet they havent got a bruise on them, other than Walshy.

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Everyone looks good in Navy Blue