The same Cats who lost to us by 63 points last year? Or lost to the Suns by 64 points 4 weeks before that? Or lost to us last week? Lost to St Kilda in Round 2?
Yeah, up and about every week.

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Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.

See Cerra interview post Crows game.

Our one wood didn’t bring the heat. It starts in the middle. That’s been our strength. Cerra admits the midfield group got punched out.

The other area we have been good in is defense. The 2nd half became an onslaught due to the midfield group lowering their colours, allowing ample supply. It got too much to handle. This zone defense shit we introduced v Crows isn’t what we’ve delivered all year. I know it happened late in the 3rd and 4th but…Why did that happen?

It’s the players.

Docherty was crap, but any fair person wpuld know why Doc was selected. He was BOG in the VFL. It’s up to Doc to bring his A game. Have a look at the reserves yesterday. Only Binns could put his hand up. If he’s selected and gets brushed off ball and his passes don’t connect, don’t blame him. He was next man up.

Pressure and contest.

Didn’t help having TDKs run and jump taken away by a more physical ruckman. Stuff what he does with his 2nd and 3rd efforts for a minute. TDKs primary role is to win or nullify the ruck and give our mids an even chance. Pitto should have been rucking against OReilly imo. Horses for courses.

Back to the drawing board. Next is Saints. Let’s get physical. Marshall v TDK. Keen to see what happens.

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Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

How can Voss last week out coach Scott, but this week is the worst coach in the league.

Let's look at some facts abut the Crows, the #1 scoring team in the comp (let's not forget that minor detail):

TEAM
They smashed us in Hit-outs - 45 to 19 (not the coach)
They smashed us in centre clearances (our 1 wood) - 16 to 6 (not the coach)
They smashed us in contested and uncontested possessions - 129 to 112 and 255 to 192 (HINT: If you have leg speed you can make space for uncontested possessions)
They smashed us in Marks - 120 to 94 (as above)
They smashed us in Marks inside F50 - 20 to 6 (this is a delivery issue from our mids as it has been for the last couple of years)
They smashed us in Contested marks (not the coach)
They smashed us in Inside 50 (also our 1 wood this year) - 58 to 36 (HINT: We know we are the fastest ball moving team in the AFL, so the only other thing it could be is leg speed)
Their disposal efficiency was also better 80% to 73.3% and Eff. Inside 50 53.4% to 41.7%

PLAYERS
The loss of JSOS smarts and Cotterell and Williams speed was immense, given the depth we have any time you lose 3 of your best players we are already well behind.
Lewis had to come in for JSOS, there was no other choice.
We had no quick forward to add to the list so Doc was the only choice and his VFL game put him above others (I agree he's done, but he deserved a shot).
The loss of run and speed from Cottrell was replaced with Cowan, who although is quick plays a different role.
Like it or not, this is the state of our list.

The Crows had no players under 50% disposal Eff. (lowest was 58%), we had Durdin @ 50% and TDK @ 47%.
They also only had 2 player in the bottom 10 for disposal Eff. and the top 4 were Crows with 7 of the top 10 theirs also.
They also had 7 player in the top 10 for kicking Eff. and only 2 players 50% or below, we had 4 with TDK kicking 9 kicks at 22.2%
Staying on TDK (1.7m man), he was wiped by O'Brien 40 hit-outs to 16, there's half of your clearance issues (not coaching).

Their key forwards were all kept pretty quite, Fogarty 2, Walker 1 and Thilthorpe 1.
But where they killed us was their mids kicking goals.
Their mids Dawson 3, Rankine 2, Rachele 2, Smith 1 vs our mids Crippa 2

Our defence had 9 of the top 10 players for defensive efforts so it was not from a lack of trying, they were just cleaner through the middle and their 'leg speed' made us look like witches hats.
We also had less players with clangers 3 out of the top 10.

In summary we were killed in the middle and due to the lack of speed and skill in the midfield (again) we were killed by a much faster team in both transition and F50 entires.
Acres, Hollands, Doc, Hewett, Cripps and to a degree Cerra and Walsh all too slow compared to their midfield.

There may only be a couple of things on this list that you could argue coaching but getting your hands on the ball, hitting targets and having the speed to make space are 100% not coaching, that is drafting and trading.

So while the easy piñata to hit is the coach, this is more player than coach for me.
We need a full list to be competitive because our list has not evolved (epsecially our midfield) for the way the game has changed and putting all our hopes on a 17 year old kid was very risky.
Speed kills and we got killed on Saturday.

And as for changing a winning game plan after beating Geelong, that is just madness, especially when you don't have the players to change it.

@Sidefx - half of our issues such as hit outs & centre clearances can be attributed to coaching. As a coach you can make a change or more importantly mentor the players to adjust to combat a tactic, such as tap outs. You cannot just dismiss everything as 'not' coaching. I do agree however, this one was mostly on the players.

If a professional athlete requires a coach to have them mentally ready for a game, then I suggest flipping burgers may be a better suited vocation...

Problem with this list is we need TDK/ruckman to dominate or at least break even at the bounce in order for Plan A to have a chance. It's unrealistic to expect that for 4 qtrs let alone an entire season.

Our mids were resoundingly beaten and fell back into old habits rather quickly. Maybe others can advise but I couldn't see a Plan B to counteract the opposition... just damage control.

Some weeks back Jimmy Bartel commented on our structures when we had the ball at half back looking for an option. Our mids all stood flat footed forcing a long bomb to a congested contest. He mentioned that congested area at the Cats was called the 'no standing zone'... ie spread or else.

My problem is that we're still falling back into the same old habits that have plagued us for the past 3.5 years... that has to be coaching as a group... not just Voss but he needs to set the tone.

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“I would rather have questions that can't be answered than answers that can't be questioned.” ― Richard Feynman

Sorry but I don't see how.
Are you able to explain this a bit better?
And what should've changed from a coaching perspective?

The way I see it is this.
We have a gun ruck that was getting soundly beaten, we have Walsh, Hewett, Cerra and Cripps all distinguished midfielders who know how to read the tap, they know how to get the ball when the opposition ruck is dominating, they also know how to hold onto their man when the ruck is tapping to their advantage and to block their run.
I don't see how Voss can have any more of a role in this with pre game reviews, post game reviews etc, if they needed more coaching, than we need to trade them on.
And I am sure he mentors them everyday.
The only other leaver he had and due to our lack of quality depth is to put in lesser qualified midfielders, which Voss did try with Motlop, Lord and Durdin to no avail.
I think you have to remember our starting mids are our best and the games best contested midfield, the only thing they all lack is leg speed.
So while I agree with your point some coaching has to be taken into account, but as you said this was mostly on the players but not so much on them as players but the type of athletes they are, not as quick and evasive as the Crows which has a trickle down effect on other areas of the game.

Explanation is simple. You get TdK to move around and not keep doing the same thing over and over and over again. Not once did he counter O’Reilys tactic. Not once! Secondly, changing the players in one move but lineing them up in different areas of the centre setup is something that wasn’t done enough, if at all.

Your other point is totally unacceptable, and I have a real issue with this mentality, because it gives our current midfielders an excuse and out. As an example, Brisbane’, Collingwood, Hawthorn don’t have an explosive midfield and definitely don’t have the class of Walsh, Cerra and Cripps.

As I said, our players were deplorable but coaching didn’t do enough.

Outside TDK reviewing pre match with the ruck coach (Kruezer), speaking to him during the game and having some smarts himself.
I still don't see how this is the head coach's problem. Aside from Voss getting in there and rucking himself, TDK was soundly beaten by a tougher better ruck and obviously couldn't adjust to counteract him. This is 100% a player issue and if he is going to be worth $1.7m he needs step it up another level and be a game changer like Gawn, maybe you need to not overvalue him like the Aints are and realise as always he struggles against the bigger rucks. And 22% kicking eff. is just woeful, for any player let alone a gun ruck.

As far as lining up goes, have you thought that being the slower and less dangerous players on the day Adelaide were dictating this more than coaching was?
I don't know about you, but for me the game quickly turned to being a more defensive stop the flood game, nullifying our dare and run as we were too slow to keep up with their ball movement and speed. We lost any form of control very early.

As for Brisbane, Collingwood and Hawthorn not having an explosive midfield and lack the class of Walsh, Cerra and Cripps.
I'm sorry, but you have definitely overvalued our players, this mentality is why our list is where it is, the players already have an out, in that there is very little threat coming up from behind them.
They maybe great contested mids, but are a long way off of those teams midfields in explosiveness and class.
Walsh's kicking has been way off and Cripps and Hewett have never been great kicks and they rarely trouble the goals (although Cripps is getting better), I'm not sure what class you are referring too.

The only thing Voss could've done was put Durdin, Elijah and Hewett in the middle at the same time to see how that went.
Put that would'v only been putting one finger in the dam wall IMO, not change the game.

I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on this one.
My opinion on our list, especially our mids has been the same for a few years and recruiting hasn't changed or adjusted to the games evolution.
You can only spit polish a turd so much and we need nearly 100% fitness to be competitive against a lot of teams.
Not saying we can't, but we are on a knifes edge all the time.
And the head coach can only work with what he has got, history over the last 30 years has proven changing coaches hasn't fixed the problem, but failing to evolve with the game has 100% made us not successful.

lol ... the suns and st kilda? you are kidding.

on the cats loss to us last year, i remember scott saying we were the best team he's played in 5 years of coaching. that no cats team had been taken apart like what we just did. at that point we believed we on a collision course with GF day.


anyway the cats losing like that, in that manner hasn't happened since.

carlton have regularly through Voss's tenure lost games we never should have. been absolutely mauled by better teams, and it's all to the point where any educated fan really wonders at which version of Carlton will turn up from week to week. 60 points down in a semi final to the lions before we even scored, right off the back of the most maddening team selections you could encounter.

and that, is coaching. consistency and standards driven by coaching is not being met.

so sick of hearing that doc was BOG in the magoos and therefore warranted selection. the magoos is a far cry from afl. docherty hasn't been a consistent afl player in 2 seasons, and acl reco ago.

in 2023, he was constantly being beaten by his opponent, espesh when out on the wing. out hustled, outrun and not up to the physical requirement of putting his body on the line.


doc can never play again in afl in our jersey. we are playing a man down. have a quick look at our for and against in the last 8 games doc has played. when doc and pittonet play, we are two men down. two men who cannot get themselves to the contest.

Actually, our list isn't way off - the problem is the match committee, including our leadership players aren't giving some 'outside the like group' a go.
For instance, Lucas Camporeale and Binns give us good outside run, just like Ollie does who most wanted dropped.
Cowan (sub ffs) / Boyd give us better accountability down back, but we play one as sub!!!
Amongst another one of 2 but they should have replaced Acres who has been sh1t this year and Mcgovern, who shouldn't be allowed to play AFL ever again!!!
Can't believe we will get McGovern to the contract trigger, just to appease the playing group.
As another example, I also think our coach's setup Young and Carroll to fail. Carroll was dragged back to the goal square and the kid was out of this depth. Our defensive leaders or coaches sat on their hands!!! Young was played on Walker. I said pre-game this is something we need to be aware might hurt us with SoS out. Our leader Weitering should have taken Walker, and Young should have played on Thilthorpe. Playing out of your comfort zone for the team - that’s leadership!!!
So as I said - players are to blame but coaches are exempt.
Anyway - the changes this week will be Young and Carroll. We just know what the MC will do.

I don't think our list is way off, but it is slow, unbalanced (both talent and contracts) and has little depth.
I agree in giving the kids more of a go, players like Doc and Acres have been well below standard.
McGovern, Young, Cottrell and others are just a tease, they are too inconsistent.
Then we have players like Ollie, Cowan, Motlop, Fogarty who all show moments of hope but are all still physically deficient to become elite in their roles and takeover or support our top 6 players.
Especially when the midfields kryptonite is exposed, lack of leg speed and foot skills.

But let's be logical for a minute, Voss can only go on form.
Doc was shit in the seniors but best of our players in the VFL.
And while we still have a chance to be competitive, selecting kids that are not performing as well in the 2s over others is basically saying our list is off and we are in rebuild mode.
Is that what you are saying also?

I don't think you can blame our defence last week, our midfield was killed and that has a flow on effect.
Walker was kept to 1 goal and 1 goal assist, that is pretty good considering he kicks bags on us, every time.
Like I said before, it was mainly their mids that destroyed us on the scoreboard.
Just look at the stats I posted.
I think you need to look at the players, their capabilities and our list composition and depth a bit more before we start bashing the coach.
And I don't think he's totally blameless in any loss or win for that matter.
They have a game plan, they have a direction to implement it and it is a whole club effort.
But you can only work with what you have got and if Austin does leave and we increase our recruiting department as it's been suggested, then that should speak volumes IMO.

Like I said we will have to agree to disagree on this.

Spot on Sidey

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Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

Not really coaching.

Since the preseason right up till this game v Crwos our midfield did help out defense a lot. Standing flat footed this week was not the doing of the coach. The players admit it. They got punched out. The mids failed to offer an outlet.
'
No way a coach tells them to be flat footed. No way.

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Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

braithy, I get to the point I get sick of the personnell who don't fire, but just as I said either preseason or after round 1 in a discussion with Crusader, we haven't replaced the depth we discarded and injury will expose us. In round 1 players we hjad missing were Newman Smith Cincotta Boyd, Durdin, Fantasia, Elijah and Pittonet, with harry and Walshy underdone.

Its not a lie that Doc was BOG. Have to call it for what it is. We had Newman, Smith, Cincotta, SOS, Williams, Cottrell and Kemp all missing. They had to be replaced by all the depth we could muster.

If Doc is better than other players in the VFL, its obvious to me that if selecting Doc we are playing a man down, then how do we find improvement by selecting players who are not a good as Doc in the VFL?

Conundrum. The facts are obvious. Injury is not our friend in a list that has poor depth. I agree Doc in current form wouldn't be in our best 23 if we had a healthy playing list.

I'm curious, what would you have done to help us beat Crows instead of picking Doc?

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Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

I agree with all you posted, everything with the exception of your opinion on the value of 20yo Ollie Hollands. Like Kade Simpson, Ollie may never have physical size, you expect but he has other weapons others don't. He's producing more than expected from a 20yo.

Carroll on the last line was stupidity. He can't cover his man plus his team mates opponent.

Just on the point Surrey made re coach...to change things up in the middle. TDK was smashed. What was the alternative? Young? Then we'd be short in defence, and the mids were getting a batch. Change the midfield mix? with who? Surely not the small forward midgets Durdin and Motlop. Fogarty?

I don't think the coach had many alternatives. We had our best in the midfield; a group who hadn't lowered their colours in previous weeks.

At least Cerra owned up tot he fact the mids got smashed.

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Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

You don't believe that playing Doc, TDK and Cerra, in the Final, players who had missed a lot of footy who pushed out Lord, Cincotta and Moir cost us the Final? Surely not. If you do, I have to laugh to avoid crying and shame.

We were hit by injuries since the Cats win, at one stage 20 out injured (FMD 20!!), and for the Final we had missing due to injury Marchbank, Cottrell, Cuningham, Fogarty, SOS, Curnow, Owies Martin, Durdin and Boyd. 10 players missing and 3 underdone payers playing. People forget that part. We played half of our VFL team in the Final. We certainly didnt lose because Doc played. That's naive.

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Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

The players definitely let us down but as I said coaching didn’t help.
When TdK does the same thing over and over again and it’s failing. It’s up to the coach to advise a change.
Young to the forward line in the last was just plain hilarious and embarrassing. Coaching move!!
Anyway, I’ve made my point - the display was embarrassing and it was the players who should be ashamed.

I get your point, but I can't think of anything creative Voss could have done TBH. Young in the ruck and TDK forward?
I know they pay Voss the big bucks to make the decison, but we have been a conditional team for 3 years now.

IMO we really needed a more physical ruckman to combat O'Reilly. That was a decision made at the selection table.
The MC made their bed before the game. How were they to know the midfield and ruck would be dominated like they were?
Obviously bigger rucks know what to do to beat TDK in the ruck. I think too many fans focus on what TDK does on the floor, and not his main role.

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Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

Pitto can handle the bash and crash . That's why Voss plays him . Pitto takes the heat away from TDK .

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All my dangerous friends