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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2025
PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2025 2:16 pm 
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Ken Hunter

Joined: Thu May 11, 2006 6:11 pm
Posts: 14951
This is from BF;
"Have it on good authority that Austin will "resign" (forced out) in the coming months. Agresta call to be made by new list boss but unlikely to survive. Wright rates our list as bottom 8 quality with poor depth and ridiculously unbalanced. "

There may be an interesting few months coming up.


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2025
PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2025 2:30 pm 
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Craig Bradley
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Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2012 4:42 pm
Posts: 6980
kezza wrote:
This is from BF;
"Have it on good authority that Austin will "resign" (forced out) in the coming months. Agresta call to be made by new list boss but unlikely to survive. Wright rates our list as bottom 8 quality with poor depth and ridiculously unbalanced. "

There may be an interesting few months coming up.



i like this, bcos it's an honest observation... no rose coloured glasses. and of course, bcos i agree with it.


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2025
PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2025 2:55 pm 
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Craig Bradley
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Joined: Thu Sep 21, 2017 1:55 pm
Posts: 6387
kezza wrote:
This is from BF;
"Have it on good authority that Austin will "resign" (forced out) in the coming months. Agresta call to be made by new list boss but unlikely to survive. Wright rates our list as bottom 8 quality with poor depth and ridiculously unbalanced. "

There may be an interesting few months coming up.

Excellent, this is what is needed and pretty much the rest of the footy world has seen.
We love to overate our players at Carlton, that is a given.
Time to make some hard decisions and put the whole list on notice.


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2025
PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2025 3:06 pm 
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Craig Bradley

Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 6:36 am
Posts: 6335
I’ll see it
And then I’ll believe it
Anyone see The Crows Suns game
Two teams who finished below us
Clearly better


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2025
PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2025 3:11 pm 
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Robert Walls
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Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 3:54 pm
Posts: 3483
Location: looking for a good bloke to have a beer with
Gone past us at light speed

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2025
PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2025 3:26 pm 
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Wayne Johnston
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Joined: Wed May 04, 2005 1:26 am
Posts: 8024
Location: Melbourne
It's pretty soul destroying watching 17 clubs display exciting new talent and late draft pick ups....

And we've had 2 rising star nominations in 5 years ....

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2025
PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2025 7:28 pm 
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Rod McGregor

Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2023 9:58 pm
Posts: 164
Austin has been woeful he has put us back 10 years
Just watching the vfl game we are a mess of a football club
What is Brad Lloyd roll in the club besides tell us lies about injuried players


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2025
PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2025 10:28 pm 
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Harry Vallence
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Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 10:13 pm
Posts: 1140
Location: Narre Warren VIC
Just Imagine if this Trend continues and we end up finishing bottom 4!!! What does this mean for our future & 2026?


Well we have a 1st round pick, most likely pick 3, 4 or 5..... Then we can Trade TDK to get another pick, so then we can have 2 early picks in 2025 and that is the perfect start to rebuild....

Oh NOOOOOOOOOOOOO, that won't happen.. We have given up our 1st round pick to Hawthorn.... Out of all Teams, its Hawthorn.... just imagine if the Hawks win the Priemier ship this Season, then gets pick 3 or 4 next year!!! Total madness!!


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2025 11:57 pm 
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Ken Hunter
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Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 8:32 am
Posts: 10511
Dodo27 wrote:
Just Imagine if this Trend continues and we end up finishing bottom 4!!! What does this mean for our future & 2026?


Well we have a 1st round pick, most likely pick 3, 4 or 5..... Then we can Trade TDK to get another pick, so then we can have 2 early picks in 2025 and that is the perfect start to rebuild....

Oh NOOOOOOOOOOOOO, that won't happen.. We have given up our 1st round pick to Hawthorn.... Out of all Teams, its Hawthorn.... just imagine if the Hawks win the Priemier ship this Season, then gets pick 3 or 4 next year!!! Total madness!!


Shoot me now. Do me a favour. I couldn’t bare it.

Btw - I was out to dinner with a Hawthorn supporter tonight. Smirking all night……….will we ever get back to being respected but loathed?


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2025
PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2025 4:38 am 
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Rod Ashman

Joined: Thu Mar 20, 2008 9:42 pm
Posts: 2806
Location: dudley!!!
[quote="keogh"]I’ll see it
And then I’ll believe it
Anyone see The Crows Suns game
Two teams who finished below us
Clearly better[/quote]

Yeah, me too. Too many words in the past for too little action.

Norf will go past us next year as well

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2025
PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2025 4:42 am 
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Rod Ashman

Joined: Thu Mar 20, 2008 9:42 pm
Posts: 2806
Location: dudley!!!
Keithy wrote:
Austin has been woeful he has put us back 10 years
Just watching the vfl game we are a mess of a football club
What is Brad Lloyd roll in the club besides tell us lies about injuried players


I think we put too high of an expectation in the campo twins.
However, the development of our kids seems to be as poor as it ever was.

Can't help but feel there is something very wrong behind the scenes. Last year a lot of our wins were close and I recall quite a few of us thinking being second on the ladder was not a true reflection

Now we know they were right. But you don't lose talent overnight. These blokes are as complacent as they were in the Murphy years, but now seem to have lost faith in the coach

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2025
PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2025 4:43 am 
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Rod Ashman

Joined: Thu Mar 20, 2008 9:42 pm
Posts: 2806
Location: dudley!!!
Keithy wrote:
Austin has been woeful he has put us back 10 years
Just watching the vfl game we are a mess of a football club
What is Brad Lloyd roll in the club besides tell us lies about injuried players


SOS was worse

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my last one was rubbish


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2025
PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2025 8:37 am 
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Craig Bradley

Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 6:36 am
Posts: 6335
The thing with the campo twins is
Were there better players out there around those picks
Time will tell
Both look to be good runners but not naturally good kicks
Dare I say it
Sam Davidson


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2025
PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2025 10:08 am 
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Stephen Kernahan
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Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2005 11:17 am
Posts: 18564
Location: threeohfivethree
https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/it-means-you-re-stuffed-these-victorian-powerhouses-are-in-the-afl-s-no-man-s-land-20250404-p5lpd4.html

‘It means you’re stuffed’: These Victorian powerhouses are in the AFL’s no man’s land

By Jake Niall


Back in the late ’90s, then Carlton coach David Parkin expressed to me his view that clubs entered into rebuilding mode when they had no choice. “It means you’re stuffed.”

Thus, it is not surprising that Brad Scott and Essendon* have described their 2025 position as “a reset” and that the Bombers feel they’ve already endured that word which is a signal for the fans to be patient, as kids accumulate games and veterans are gently or forcibly shunted.

It’s debatable whether Essendon* are rebuilding, or in the logical next phase, which a veteran list manager of another club designated as “building.”

Today, there are three clubs I’d place in no man’s land, which means that they’re not rebuilding, contending or even building.

It should not surprise readers that Melbourne, Carlton and Port Adelaide are the clubs that have stumbled into no man’s land, although the Demons are attempting a cultural rebuild, and have refreshed their list with young talent.

Teams that end up in that list management purgatory are often those who’ve sought to contend and fallen short, but have not yet committed to the next stage and aren’t young overall. Melbourne falls into that category, alas.

The Demons have declined in proportion to the ageing and injuries – to Christian Petracca’s happiness, as much as his internal organs – of their superstars. Handling their unease or decline is difficult.

Carlton’s slide into limbo-land is primarily due to excessive reliance on a super six players, a few of whom are bedevilled with injury, and insufficient depth.

Richmond of 2023 was in no man’s land, caught between the glorious Hardwick/Cotchin revolution and the imminent rebuild which has turned into a hard core, scorched earth version. Their course correction to rebuild was immediate.

Arguably, the Bombers were marooned in no man’s land for years after the drugs saga – certainly they landed there early this decade, as attempts to fast track to contention (see trades of 2017-19) failed. St Kilda was in that same unwanted post code, once the rebuild of 2013-17 foundered on the rocks of poor selections.

“What you do next is the most important thing,” said one club’s list manager of teams that fell into no man’s land.

In 2025, the position of five clubs is as clear as cut glass. Richmond and the West Coast Eagles are in total rebuilds. Brisbane, Greater Western Sydney and Hawthorn are unequivocally in premiership contention.

Rebuilding is defined, as NFL teams do, as the stage when your overriding priority is to collect talent. The path is longer-range, the primary mechanism the draft.

If you’re rebuilding, there’s no point in giving up significant draft capital for a player older than mid-20s. Essendon*, hence, can be defined in that mode – they eschewed pursuing Dan Houston, holding their draft picks, and they’re fielding teams in the bottom three for games played and age.

Assisted by the input of recruiters or list managers, I’ve placed all 18 clubs in the four phases of list construction.

Adelaide and Gold Coast look threatening, and it’s conceivable that either could reach the top six. But their list profiles – with minimal finals experience (none in Gold Coast history) – define those teams as quintessential “building” clubs.

Fremantle’s demographics are surprisingly near the bottom for games played this year. Despite high expectations (which this column shared), the Dockers cannot be placed in the contending camp, and are definitely building.

This doesn’t preclude the Crows, Suns or even Dockers from giving the premiership a shake. The point is that they’re not yet ripe. If they contend this year, it will be ahead of schedule.

“Building” is characterised by a shift to specific, needs-based recruiting of mature players, such as Fremantle trading for Shai Bolton or the Suns importing running half-backs Dan Rioli and John Noble.

Collingwood and Geelong, by dint of their demographics (and refusal to bow to the draft’s gravity), are in contention mode, even if it is not yet clear whether they can go all the way. Regardless of whether they make the top four, the old Magpies run the risk of a descent into no man’s land in 2026 without an infusion of quality youth.

Sydney began this season in the premiership mix. I doubt they’re capable of winning it. But I’ve designated them as “contending” on the basis that they were minor premiers and grand finalists last year and harbour flag aspirations.

The Bulldogs, impressive in surmounting the absence of Marcus Bontempelli and Adam Treloar, are right on the cusp of contention. The list profile, though, suggests that they’re – just – on the building site.

Surprisingly, North Melbourne have graduated from perennial rebuild into “building” under Alastair Clarkson, on the back of repeated top five picks. This switch is evident in the recruitment of Jack Darling, Caleb Daniel and Luke Parker, in their pursuit of mature players on the market and willingness to trade an early pick for Houston.

St Kilda, while better performed than North lately, have most hallmarks of a rebuilding team, and I’ve graded them accordingly, alongside the Bombers, Richmond and West Coast.

The Saints have held their draft choices since Ross Lyon’s arrival, casting off veterans Seb Ross and Tim Membrey, and were not displeased to gain draft compensation for Josh Battle. St Kilda’s decision to extend Lyon’s contract, as Essendon* did with Scott, bespoke their view that they had the coach they wanted and wished to give him a longer runway.

“We have transformed from one of the oldest lists in the competition to one of the youngest,” said president Andrew Bassat when Lyon’s extension was announced.

Hawthorn also spent time in no man’s land earlier this decade, before the clumsy handover from Clarkson to Sam Mitchell triggered a reckoning and a 66-game rebuilding of the list. As with other clubs, the Hawks planned to harvest the draft before it was plundered by the Tasmania Devils.

Hawthorn of 2025 are a rare instance of a club that jumped straight from rebuilding into contention, bypassing the gateway of building mode.

The competition is so tight now that more than a dozen clubs can aspire to making finals every year. The cornerstone of success, as club people acknowledge, is getting the forecasting right. Knowing thyself.

To deplete the cupboard of draft picks and/or salary cap space and then fail, can consign a club to either purgatory in no man’s land or a stint in the cellar.

Such was the Lions’ lot under Michael Voss when they unwisely punted on Brendan Fevola in 2009 after a fleeting finals victory over Carlton; they weren’t back in finals until 2019. By then, a new club had sprouted on the Gold Coast, free agency had come and Victorian empires – and Peter V’landys’ “rugba league” – had struck back.

Projecting Melbourne’s ladder position in 2025 was not much easier than forecasting weather in the city of the same name.

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2025
PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2025 10:15 am 
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Ken Hunter
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jun 23, 2013 2:16 pm
Posts: 14446
Location: Sydney
keogh wrote:
The thing with the campo twins is
Were there better players out there around those picks
Time will tell
Both look to be good runners but not naturally good kicks
Dare I say it
Sam Davidson


Another player you had never mentioned before, but now that he looks to be the steal of the 3rd round, we- and only we - were grossly incompetent not to select him.

Easy game, this one, isn't it?


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2025
PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2025 10:17 am 
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Alex Jesaulenko
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Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 8:35 am
Posts: 20193
Location: 父 父 父 父 父 父
keogh wrote:
The thing with the campo twins is
Were there better players out there around those picks
Time will tell
Both look to be good runners but not naturally good kicks
Dare I say it
Sam Davidson
I've no doubt that in 5 years when those better players emerge there will be those that tell us they saw them first... Even though they didn't mention it at the time.

It's called 'DavidKinging It'. Predicting what's going to happen after it happened.

Or it could be called something else.

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2025
PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2025 11:19 am 
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Craig Bradley
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Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2012 4:42 pm
Posts: 6980
AIRCAV wrote:
It's pretty soul destroying watching 17 clubs display exciting new talent and late draft pick ups....

And we've had 2 rising star nominations in 5 years ....



haven't been able to stop thinking about this post since i read it yday.

i think for me at least. it's the lack of club direction, the lack of drafting and development, the lack of excitement within the list, the way we play and the future.

this is far far worse than missing the 8, or losing the first 4 of the season, or our constant underperforming. it is, as you say. soul destroying. this club is ruining many of us and our will to keep following them from one disaster to the next - all the while the fabric of the club remains intact.

we need to burn fabric. lol


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2025
PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2025 12:24 pm 
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Craig Bradley

Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 6:36 am
Posts: 6335
GWS wrote:
https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/it-means-you-re-stuffed-these-victorian-powerhouses-are-in-the-afl-s-no-man-s-land-20250404-p5lpd4.html

‘It means you’re stuffed’: These Victorian powerhouses are in the AFL’s no man’s land

By Jake Niall


Back in the late ’90s, then Carlton coach David Parkin expressed to me his view that clubs entered into rebuilding mode when they had no choice. “It means you’re stuffed.”

Thus, it is not surprising that Brad Scott and Essendon** have described their 2025 position as “a reset” and that the Bombers feel they’ve already endured that word which is a signal for the fans to be patient, as kids accumulate games and veterans are gently or forcibly shunted.

It’s debatable whether Essendon** are rebuilding, or in the logical next phase, which a veteran list manager of another club designated as “building.”

Today, there are three clubs I’d place in no man’s land, which means that they’re not rebuilding, contending or even building.

It should not surprise readers that Melbourne, Carlton and Port Adelaide are the clubs that have stumbled into no man’s land, although the Demons are attempting a cultural rebuild, and have refreshed their list with young talent.

Teams that end up in that list management purgatory are often those who’ve sought to contend and fallen short, but have not yet committed to the next stage and aren’t young overall. Melbourne falls into that category, alas.

The Demons have declined in proportion to the ageing and injuries – to Christian Petracca’s happiness, as much as his internal organs – of their superstars. Handling their unease or decline is difficult.

Carlton’s slide into limbo-land is primarily due to excessive reliance on a super six players, a few of whom are bedevilled with injury, and insufficient depth.

Richmond of 2023 was in no man’s land, caught between the glorious Hardwick/Cotchin revolution and the imminent rebuild which has turned into a hard core, scorched earth version. Their course correction to rebuild was immediate.

Arguably, the Bombers were marooned in no man’s land for years after the drugs saga – certainly they landed there early this decade, as attempts to fast track to contention (see trades of 2017-19) failed. St Kilda was in that same unwanted post code, once the rebuild of 2013-17 foundered on the rocks of poor selections.

“What you do next is the most important thing,” said one club’s list manager of teams that fell into no man’s land.

In 2025, the position of five clubs is as clear as cut glass. Richmond and the West Coast Eagles are in total rebuilds. Brisbane, Greater Western Sydney and Hawthorn are unequivocally in premiership contention.

Rebuilding is defined, as NFL teams do, as the stage when your overriding priority is to collect talent. The path is longer-range, the primary mechanism the draft.

If you’re rebuilding, there’s no point in giving up significant draft capital for a player older than mid-20s. Essendon**, hence, can be defined in that mode – they eschewed pursuing Dan Houston, holding their draft picks, and they’re fielding teams in the bottom three for games played and age.

Assisted by the input of recruiters or list managers, I’ve placed all 18 clubs in the four phases of list construction.

Adelaide and Gold Coast look threatening, and it’s conceivable that either could reach the top six. But their list profiles – with minimal finals experience (none in Gold Coast history) – define those teams as quintessential “building” clubs.

Fremantle’s demographics are surprisingly near the bottom for games played this year. Despite high expectations (which this column shared), the Dockers cannot be placed in the contending camp, and are definitely building.

This doesn’t preclude the Crows, Suns or even Dockers from giving the premiership a shake. The point is that they’re not yet ripe. If they contend this year, it will be ahead of schedule.

“Building” is characterised by a shift to specific, needs-based recruiting of mature players, such as Fremantle trading for Shai Bolton or the Suns importing running half-backs Dan Rioli and John Noble.

Collingwood and Geelong, by dint of their demographics (and refusal to bow to the draft’s gravity), are in contention mode, even if it is not yet clear whether they can go all the way. Regardless of whether they make the top four, the old Magpies run the risk of a descent into no man’s land in 2026 without an infusion of quality youth.

Sydney began this season in the premiership mix. I doubt they’re capable of winning it. But I’ve designated them as “contending” on the basis that they were minor premiers and grand finalists last year and harbour flag aspirations.

The Bulldogs, impressive in surmounting the absence of Marcus Bontempelli and Adam Treloar, are right on the cusp of contention. The list profile, though, suggests that they’re – just – on the building site.

Surprisingly, North Melbourne have graduated from perennial rebuild into “building” under Alastair Clarkson, on the back of repeated top five picks. This switch is evident in the recruitment of Jack Darling, Caleb Daniel and Luke Parker, in their pursuit of mature players on the market and willingness to trade an early pick for Houston.

St Kilda, while better performed than North lately, have most hallmarks of a rebuilding team, and I’ve graded them accordingly, alongside the Bombers, Richmond and West Coast.

The Saints have held their draft choices since Ross Lyon’s arrival, casting off veterans Seb Ross and Tim Membrey, and were not displeased to gain draft compensation for Josh Battle. St Kilda’s decision to extend Lyon’s contract, as Essendon** did with Scott, bespoke their view that they had the coach they wanted and wished to give him a longer runway.

“We have transformed from one of the oldest lists in the competition to one of the youngest,” said president Andrew Bassat when Lyon’s extension was announced.

Hawthorn also spent time in no man’s land earlier this decade, before the clumsy handover from Clarkson to Sam Mitchell triggered a reckoning and a 66-game rebuilding of the list. As with other clubs, the Hawks planned to harvest the draft before it was plundered by the Tasmania Devils.

Hawthorn of 2025 are a rare instance of a club that jumped straight from rebuilding into contention, bypassing the gateway of building mode.

The competition is so tight now that more than a dozen clubs can aspire to making finals every year. The cornerstone of success, as club people acknowledge, is getting the forecasting right. Knowing thyself.

To deplete the cupboard of draft picks and/or salary cap space and then fail, can consign a club to either purgatory in no man’s land or a stint in the cellar.

Such was the Lions’ lot under Michael Voss when they unwisely punted on Brendan Fevola in 2009 after a fleeting finals victory over Carlton; they weren’t back in finals until 2019. By then, a new club had sprouted on the Gold Coast, free agency had come and Victorian empires – and Peter V’landys’ “rugba league” – had struck back.

Projecting Melbourne’s ladder position in 2025 was not much easier than forecasting weather in the city of the same name.


The optimistic people will love this


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2025
PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2025 4:38 pm 
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Rod Ashman
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Joined: Sat Aug 20, 2011 4:05 pm
Posts: 2708
It's still only one persons opinion.


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2025
PostPosted: Sun Apr 06, 2025 8:29 pm 
Offline
Craig Bradley

Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 6:36 am
Posts: 6335
carntheblues wrote:
It's still only one persons opinion.


I wonder if supporters like your good self watch other teams
In the small sample size this year the Gold Coast The Crows The Saints The Pies seem to have gone passed us
These teams didn’t make the eight in 2024
Of the other seven teams that did Port look ordinary
The rest our in contention
Of the rest Essendon* WC and Richmond and North are rebuilding
The club thought at the end of 24 that the window was open
The window is shut
Our list isn’t young anymore and the game has simply gone passed some blokes
In the case of Melbourne who are trying a different game it won’t work because they haven’t the personnel
Gawn is 33
Oliver was a top 10 player a few years ago
Now he is a plodder
This is the thing
There is no doubt the game has evolved into a less contested game
It’s ball movement skill and ability to apply defensive pressure right across the ground
A guy who gets 25 hack kicks out of stoppage like Oliver has become redundant over night
Sit down and watch every game over the weekend

Voss is clearly not a good tactical coach
But our recruiting has been disastrous


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