I thought its preferred for ruck debate to be in this thread.



I'm trying to find the correlation between your post and the posts you are quoting.

Not sure what you're point is.

Is a Million dollars for a ruck too much? Pitto too much?

Pittonet and Young are probably on similar money $400K max.
TDK will receive $1.1M from us if he stays with carlton ($1.7M if he chooses Saints).

Pitto's form looked bad in the praccy game I saw, plus he's injured, and nowhere near form he showed in 2023 and a couple games he played with TDK last year. Young is a whipping boy, like Pittonet.

I think the point raised when looking at ruck salary is how much cap space should be attributed to the ruck position and how many of the 44 players listed should be rucks? Most teams have 4 rucks on their list: No 1 ruck, 3rd tall Fwd/Ruck, a reserve ruck, and a developing ruck. What should we have? We can't have 2 TDK's especially if they are worth $1.1M each.

If Young is selected to play with TDK in round 1, and highly likely to, lets say market value of the 2 rucks, (according to StKilda's SOS) is $2.1M, (which Carlton wont match), or, Carlton's offer being $1.5M. ($1.1K plus 400K). Is that too much?

Doesn't look like SOS will be the Fwd/Ruck we desperately missed last year. He'd be on more that $400K.

We still need a Fwd Ruck if we dont want to rely on Harry in the ruck. Like last year, I'm happy to go with the coach...you know where I sit, "in Voss we trust". You have your reasons for not trusting Voss, and imo, neither of us are right or wrong, as we only offer opinions.

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Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

Every time I see this thread I read it as "Ruck Debacle".

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"One of my favorite philosophical tenets is that people will agree with you only if they already agree with you. You do not change people's minds." - Frank Zappa

You're right though.
Since Matty Allan in 1999, we've struggled to nail the 2 giant spots.

Can't think of one ruck duo who dominated or competed consistently well for Carlton since then.

2 TDK's and Harry & Charlie would be really nice.

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Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

After last night, I'd like to try Pitto and TDK again.

Our small forwards aren't getting it done, so why not try Charlie, H, TDK and Kemp all up forward together?

Yes, Kemp missed a sitter last night, but then he nailed the more difficult second shot. As far as I'm concerned, he deserves us persisting with him up front for a season. Motlop, on the other hand, is out of chances.

Exactly how I feel . Tommy played a great game last night yet his direct opponent Toby Nankervis was the most effective player on the ground . And Motts is so close to the last chance saloon .

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All my dangerous friends

What does that tell you about Carlton when our ruck plays well but their's is the most effective player on the ground?

Pitto is out injured for another 4 weeks, and imo gone backwards.
O'Keefe is promising, but still developing also out injured.
Leaves Young to consider. He has to be considered.

TDK looked like the most dangerous forward in the last quarter.
I'm not a Kemp fan. Too flakey for me, but required if Harry is the chop out ruck if Curnow is playing with Gov/Kemp as the 2nd banana
Gov/ Kemp are not Harry McKay dangerous, but will have to do. I prefer Gov as the 3rd tall forward.

Do not like Cripps rucking to Cripps. Gives the opposition an extra on the deck. Cripps dids Ok at times but .... he shouldn't be expected to ruck and rove.

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Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

No argument from me about Young . Gotta still be in the picture for sure Bondi . Beggars can't be choosers .

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All my dangerous friends

Its a good time to have a good look at the ruck situation again, not that it isn't an ongoing concern for the team.
Forget about favourites and whipping boys and look at the role, and what we need.

Forget about TDK's cost and his return for that cost. That sidetracks the issue.
Sure, for a million bucks he should be able to dominate the ruck, like Gawn, for 80% game time, but lets get real, can he?

It remains obvious to me that just because TDK rucks for 80% GT, doesn't result in effective ruck work for all that period.
Delusional if you think he goes at 100% for 80% GT. Think about your expectations of him, versus the actual output.
I said the obvious before, he needs a spell a couple of times a quarter to keep him fresh, on his toes, and jumping.

Sure there was a couple of highly rated posters joking whether he's worth a million bucks for him to ruck if he can't effectively ruck for 80%, but what he is physically actually able to do, the key word being " effectively" is so far far away from some expectations. He is human, and he can "rest" from the energy sapping ruck role to create dangers elsewhere. TDK looked to be our most dangerous player in the last quarter, both in the ruck and as the KPF, after he was given the chop out by Cripps and Harry. It is important to note, and remember that TDK's oponent, Nankervis was the most "effective" player on the ground. Think about the damage he was allowed to do. Also, look at the result. We lost by 13 points with TDK rucking 80% GT.

Its easy to take out "superstars" from their positions to give the chop out for TDK, but imo all we are doing is just creating the same problem TDK has playing the ruck role for too long, and that is expelling more energy, for those chopping out, to fill in a gap, then returning to their rightful position, actually needing a rest. Think about it. Rob Peter to pay Paul, and burning them out to fill a gap.




https://www.sen.com.au/news/2025/03/13/unpacking-carltons-issues-after-disastrous-loss-to-richmond

Kemp is not a ruck, but SOS can. Tells me SOS is the better option for Fwd-Ruck.

Its blatantly obvious we need a strong tall with good footy IQ to play CHB and help out Weitering, and SOS is all we have got, unless its Young playing KPD, or providing the chop out for TDK.

Young is the whipping boy at Carlton, and it makes me sick to see some eating their own, because 200cm athletic talls don't grow on trees, and beggers can't be choosers.

We tried 3 KP's, DGB, Philips and McMahon, over summer, and non made the cut. We had the opportunity to find a KPD in the lower leagues, maybe Nathan Cooper (who knows?), BUT, didn't find anyone.

Instead of leaving a spot free for MSD, to select on need, and we have needs, we decided to add another small forward in Evans, after giving another small forward, Willie White a spot, giving us a brigade of midgets who are not good enough in 2025. Maybe White may make it. Yeah Fog tries hard and does the team things, but we need goals from our small forwards.

We need to give TDK a genuine chop out without negatively affecting the balance of the team: Harry is our CHF and Cripps is our Centreman. Conundrum with 200cm Young playing in the reserves filling in a KPD/ruck gap there. Young had a good preseason, but some are obsessed with what Young was 1 and 2 years ago, you don't want to see it. He's not perfect, but he fills a gap better than we are doing imo.

Ignorance is bliss.

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Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

Young has to play this week (and not VFL) ....... he's all we've got .... simple

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"IF YOU FAIL TO PREPARE, YOU'RE PREPARED TO FAIL" - Mark Spitz

Just for clarity sake, the SSP smalls were added the other way round. Evans as the 44th & final list spot, then White as an LTI replacement for Jagga.

Newman isn’t on the LTI list, yet. We may still have that MSD pick up our sleeves.

As for Young, it doesn’t matter what any of us have seen or will see going forward. Grumble guts has made up his mind & will take a chaotic three-body-problem shitshow like Thursday night every time, rather than Young. End of story.

He can’t go back. He’s a very, very ordinary forward. Sure, he can ruck… but then what?

Besides, a forward line with McKay, Curnow & Kemp solves the problem… at least until the entries start coming flower moon balls 35-40 out, centre corridor.

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"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter" - Winston Churchill.

Newman may or may not reappear for the team this year. That is all we ALL know and have been told. So that spot is mute till anything changes on that front.

Not sure why the clarification, and how that changes the end result, because the end result is the same, we have too many average small forwards: we added small forwards, which we traded for Fogarty in 2020 and drafted Durdin with our first pick, pick 31 in the same year, and followed that in 2021 with our first pick, pick 27 on Motlop. Then we topped up our smalls with the experience of Fantasia in 2023 and added Evans and White in last years haul.

Not sure how Kemp fills you with such hope when he doesnt provide anything in the ruck. He's a flanker imo. Yep, just my opinion...and I'll add some colour to the language like you did....Kemp offerrred very very little in and position: back forward and ruck. He is not KP size. He's an in betweener. He's a flanker.

Highlighted your opinion. That's purely an opinion and pigeon holing 101. Let me respond to your question.

Not sure what you saw of Young in the preseason, but what I saw, with others who I was with, filled me/us with confidence he can play a role for our team when we have gaps, and hopefully permanently:

Young covered for Weitering in GWS practise game when he went off, and did well. He did it vs Saints too. He didn't fail.

Young went forward. His job was to mark, take big defenders to the contest, or to block for team mates. he didnt fail. He made goals happen when forward. He even had a couple shots at goal from marks.

Young gave TDK the chop out in the ruck. Pitto looked out of sorts vs Saints but Young didn't. Honest toiler, but not a failure.

In GWS game, Young was thrown around forward, ruck and defense, to fill gaps requiring 200cm player. Something others can't doffer. That's all. And he did well. No stuff ups. People clapped his efforts.

We could have done with Young's help vs Richmond, but anyone with closed eyes, you call Grumble Guts, couldn't see trees for wood. Instead Cripps went into the ruck, and Harry went into the ruck, and what did Kemp actually do that Young couldn't? What about vice versa? Enlighten me.

You don't think Young was of any use to us on Thursday or do you agree with Grumble guts ? I do. Doesn't make me right. Doesn't make me wrong. What we are left with following Thursday night's "shit show" is questions. I respect your opinion enough to ask.

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Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

Weitering - Full back
Silvagni - CHB, extra ruck
Haynes - Half back
Curnow - Full forward
McKay - CHF, 2nd ruck
Kemp - Half forward

No room for Young. I think he’s a decent full back, but we’ve got one already. He can’t play CHB because he’s too slow to process what’s in front of him.

Weitering can’t play CHB. He hasn’t got the engine for it - even with his string of preseason PBs in the running metrics.

What we really need is for Mr One Point Seven to heed the coach’s message. Learn how to live in the arm wrestle for a bit.

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"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter" - Winston Churchill.

Easy to say and easy to move magnets, but I have no doubt Young had a role to play vs Tigers. Glad Charlie is back.

Glad you haven't suggested Cripps for ruck, but it will happen again with one ruck.

SOS and Harry to give TDK chop out. That worked well vs Tigers.

What Vossy message is TDK missing? Its not one of those Neanthedal lines like "suck it up",or, "do better", or, "HTFU" or "play to reflect your pay packet"
With that sort of attitude, TDK's gone. .

No wonder some have given up on the season

OK. I get it. It didnt work out last week but will this week because ... Voss can't find a way for Young to help our predicament.

TDK needs genuine support and some time to show his wares forward. Not resting, but testing his opponents. I know that's a luxury, but we have to find some balance and spread our weapons.

I don't mind TDK Harry waxing KPF TBH, as long as its waxing not resting.

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Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

In yesterday's aGE



TDK rucked relentlessly, and looked good at times, BUT his opponent was voted best on ground and most effective player. Why do you think our milllion dollar ruck had his 28 disposals, 31 HO's and over 500m gained, yet lost the ruck battle? or even worse, allowed his opponent have a huge say in their 13 point win as TDK fatigued?

TDK rucked for 80% GT. No matter how you want to spin this, and justify him playing 80% GT in the ruck, it fatigued TDK. All rucks are capable of playing the ruck for 80% Game time, but lets get real, its not going to be 80% rucking effectively, or, simply, to the best of his ability.

TDK isn't the finished product and I am still convinced he can't ruck effectively 80% GT time.

Regardless of the money he is paid or offered, he is still human. He needs a chop out. He needs two chop outs. He needs to be fresh in the ruck. He needs to be jumping over opponents, and when he isn't he is not going to win the ruck contest, and he's not going to follow the ball on the ground as well as we know he can; with intensity. That's what fatigue does. Its not a new thing. Computer games have energy supply and weapons supply to consider in games. Not different in the ruck in the game of AFL.

We should be rotating TDK more regularly. That's what I'm still saying. Agree? Don't agree?

If its not going to be Pitto, Young or O'Keefe, it has to be Harry. I get it. Don't like it, but I get it. BUT, do consider this option and the cost of taking this option. Harry is not immune either from fatiguing. That's what you get with our Coleman medallist in the ruck.

Fatigue is the result you get when rucking long periods in the ruck. That's nothing new. TDK-Harry rotation is Robbing Peter to pay Paul, but we can lessen the impact if we rotate regularly from Full Forward, during quarters. How much we ruck these two depends on the level of fatigue our team can withstand, without losing our competitiveness, and intensity, forward and ruck. Mids do it, so why not Rucks?

And when you realise speed and energy are not our One woods, why would we want to make us even slower by fatiguing key players in the ruck. Need some common sense and S&C need to get involved to help us overcome an obvious issue; an isue which hasn't been resolved since Pittonet and Young have been relegated playing VFL.

We can turn this season around quickly, but we have to learn to use this current list to the best of our ability. Fix it.

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Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

Been thinking aboiut ruck ruck fkn ruck, and ruck.

Then it dawned on me, a SWOT on having not 2 rucks but 3 rucks rotating, when TDK calls it:

TDK-McKay-SOS

Ruck-KPF-KPD.

Yes theres a few negatives, but I can think of plenty more positives.
Keep the players fresh, and fresh for the challenge.

No plodders there.

Yep, McKay at CHB for small stints. Lets ask the question of our players.
I know I like SOS KPF and KPD. I even liked SOS as a RR like his Nono.

TDK doesn't have to play CHB when he's expected to be "resting" or making himself a dangerous Fwd.

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Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

The problem with FB and CHB is you want continuity there. You want to settle your back six not just for a game but for the entirety of a season. Flag winning teams have a back six that work as a unit, not an individual

Chopping out a CHB for ruck duties and having other part timers moonlight there for stints is an absolute recipe for defensive disaster.


Our list is miles off it, old mate. Hawks will really shine the light on our deficiencies… no defence, slow of foot and not up to foot skills of the elite teams. And completely void of one electric, small forward, let alone a fleet of them needed to win a flag.

Now the media are onto how top heavy our list is, the majority of our cap spent on a few, leaving the bulk of the list looking like bottom 4. All stuff I’ve been seeing and saying for a few years now.

I think this mob have finally broken my spirits after 45 yrs of folllowing them religiously and ardently.

I've ben following Carlton for nearly 60 years, and I love having watching them play, and looking forward to tonight's game.

I know the inherent issues moving players, but I also know we didn't lose the game because of our defence or our mids. In fact, when we disrupted our back 6 by moving SOS to FF, we did well.

I'm saying mix it up, and see what happens from there.

The crux of my message is TDK needs a chop out more than once a quarter, and I'd like all running players to be given a chop out to refresh. Because rotation numbers are on the decline/ limited, we have to rotate p[layers on field.

Have to get creative.
Have to stop being predictable.
Have to keep players at the furnace fresh.
Have to keep the energy enthusiasm ip and from that the intensity up at all contests.

AS for speed in the forwardline. Yes. We agree with that.
But I'd also like Harry and Charlie to move around more around the arc. lead up, and fkc move to spread the defense

AND, every now and then, I'd like to see the 3 headed monster at play in the forwardline TDK Harry & Charlie.

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Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

If TDK does go to Saints, he will be a Fwd-Ruck.

Marshall will be the No 1 ruck.

What a great ruck combo.

How much of Saints salary cap will rucks take?

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Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

All I know is that I don't want to see Crippa in the ruck again, or at least until we get better midfield depth.
Happy to see TDK/Harry combo with TDK rested at FF and vice versa.
Happy for JSOS to pinch hit also when needed.
I would prefer a second mobile ruck/forward or ruck/defender, Young is the closest we have ATM but he's also a liability around the ground.
IMO this is the most important role on the ground and if we don't get better options to help TDK or he goes, we are screwed.

Young played his role well during the preseason in the ruck, defence and forward line.

Role players are important.

Don't pigeon hole Young. He can be an asset in our current predicament.

If TDK gets injured we lose Harry from forwardline and Charlie is double teamed.
If Weitering cops a corkie we have no one left to mind the 200cm forwards.

Beggers can't be choosers.

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Everyone looks good in Navy Blue