Continuing from the last post, I also saw some analysis from Cornes that our problem wasn’t the rucks, our problem was the rucks regularly gave our mids first use and they continually coughed it up tot he dogs and we then lost the clearance. Cerra in particular was at fault here.

So it’s not the rucks, it’s the mids who are loosing us the clearances.

https://www.afl.com.au/video/1173446/aaa-port-leaders-in-focus-pies-lose-aura-dons-forward-issues?videoId=1173446&modal=true&type=video&publishFrom=1721003320001

Go to 12.25.

Regards Cazzesman

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Ricky Gervais - “Everyone has the right to hold whatever beliefs they want. And everyone else has the right to find those beliefs f***ing ridiculous.”

i think king misses the mark big time here. but he also hits the mark and proves leigh matthew's point 1000%

... when leigh matthews says, hitouts to advantage are the most useless stat in the game, he is correct. bcos there's nothing stopping the other mids from taking that ball, tackling your mids, dispossessing and going the other way. as we all saw from the vision david king spotted up on first crack.

pittonet would often win the tap, to our advantage and the =n our mids would get outworked and lose the ball, and at times with cerra, he'd just fumble the ball and hand back possession.

so the point matthews makes about pittonet being limited across the ground, is the actual failing of pittonet. limited mobility and speed, limited second efforts and for a big man, his hands are outrageously bad, he cannot consistently mark the ball.



the other big thing here is. wins and losses fellas. when we go tall, we barely win, or we lose ... and we're losing, we losing badly. we are 15th in the AFL for points conceded. no team in AFL/VFL history has ever qualified for finals with a defense that poor. let alone win a final or make a prelim or GF.

the 9 games last year and the 6 games this year with pitto/ tdk playing we are

2 wins and 13 losses with statistically a worse defense than north melbourne.


how can anyone ignore these stats? how people can still find an argument for two rucks and 3 key forwards blows my mind.

So what you are actually saying is that we should play someone like JSOS full time in the ruck as it makes no difference as to who wins the tap?

lol it's not wrong. the dees didn't have a key forward - jackson or gawn resting were their primary marking target inside F50.

we have Harry and Charlie and tdk all as forwards and it's too tall, too slow and no defensive pressure/ turnover.


and your point about the pies winning a flag with two crappy rucks (and one key forward, so a resting ruck made them two key forwards and 4 smalls) says everything about rucks and who you actually need to win a flag with.

TDK and H with kennedy and cripps chopping in, is all we actually need to win a footy game in 2024 - as our 9-1 winning record would suggest

I Watched that click bait show.
Had another look. May have missed something.

What are you alluding to Cazz? You like Nat Edwards? You think she should be an assistant coach? She doesn't do it for me.
Ummmm. You want me to check Lloydy's quoted numbers? Yeah I do think he has a tendency to exaggerate to make a point.
What did he quote...6-7 games. TDK dominated GCS-Cats games. I can count, but the difference is significant. Did you catch him out too?

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Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

he'd be the perfect back up to tdk. as leigh matthews suggest, we have the slowest midfield in the comp, so having an athletic ruck is paramount.

Vossy at his presser



Hewett and Kennedy have been massive for us this year. Our 2 best defensive mids. They weren't selected in our best 22 this week. When Kennedy was subbed in, he didn't go into the midfield. Our defense at stoppages was left to Walsh and Cerra.

It seems to me the biggest issue isn't the 2 rucks. Having just got back to Sydney, and read TC, and I can see for the few posters are singling out the 2 rucks for our loss. I wish it was so simple.

Did anyone take note of Voss reference to Weiters being targeted off the ball, by a few stray knees that shouldn't have happened? Then he said he's said it happened more than it should have, but what a great insight for posters who find it hard to believe that Players are targeted by snipers in the 2020's, I will never turn a blind eye to adopted tactics fair and unfair to sway the result. Its a win loss business.

Now, still on that point, Vossy told us TDK has been playing sore...amd that's after he was managed to rest vs Tigers. No one mentioned that in 6 pages of posts. TDK is human, and still a developing body. He's going to have strong games when he's fit as a fiddle and down games when he's not. A purple patch doesn't last for a whole season, so don't expect it to.

We will be allright, if we are good enough, and as I've said consistently, its not a lie, rumour, or absurd to think, that Vossy wouldn't select 2 rucks. He did it again, and Vossy knows why and when he should and shouldn't play 2 rucks. Whether you agree with 2 rucks or not, you can't its not going to happen, just because you don't want it to happen.

Its Ok to have a preference, but to think posters know better than Vossy, and call the notion of 2 rucks as a furphy, well, some of you just wont learn. Its a long season. Nothing stays the same. In Vossy I trust, because I really couldn't trust posters to remain level headed and learn to avoid believing everything they say.

AFL is not as easy as playing one ruck and we win. If it was, there would be no changes to the team that played Geelong. There's more other reasons we lost than the 2 rucks. That's easy to see, isn't it? I've read heaps of other reasons for our loss in the post match thread. Cottrell, Ollie, Hewett, Kennedy, Charlie kicking 3.7, Williams injury, Weiters injury, Marchbank, TDK not in form, ...and from me, our over lap run in the first that was coming from Newman and saad dried up, or blocked off, and Vossy told us TDK hasn't been holding his marks.

There's plenty of trees for wood.

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Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

Ya know…

when you look at it…both last week and this week’s
games were of very high quality…!

we just made a few more mistakes than the other
teams…!

I’m still confident…most teams are having a bit of
a peculiar time of it…!


kindest regards tommi

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that'siti'mnotchangingthistagain......!

Maybe a 5% improvement and we beat both GWS and Bulldogs.
It's that tight this season.

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"One of my favorite philosophical tenets is that people will agree with you only if they already agree with you. You do not change people's minds." - Frank Zappa

Agree

I think a few posters would agree on that too.

Last week Briggs bullied TDK, but, imo, if Briggs was umpired the same as Pittonet, TDK would have received a lot more frees and the conversation around the ruck duel would have been framed a bit differently.

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Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

Those arguing against Pitto please answer this, if we cop Freo in the finals do you leave TDK to take on Darcy?

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Between our dreams and actions lies this world

I don't think Matthews is as dogmatic about the 2 rucks as you are alluding to. He chops and changes his mind, like other commentators do.

There's no one answer to the loss.

Would we have won if Charlie kicked 7.3 instead of 3.7?
Would Ugle have kicked 4.3 in the 2nd-4th quarter if Weitering didnt have knees into his back and hips whenevr the opportunity presented. Dirty bastards.
Would the selection of Hewett have locked in the ball at stoppages.
Did the loss of Gov breakdown our turnover game?

I think there's an argument to blame to consider each of the above scenarios for our loss, and when combined there's the game, if you want to see it that way.

Would Vossy have gone with 2 rucks if TDK wasn't sore? No one knows the real backdrop to the story of the day, but we fight another fight next week.

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Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

The interesting thing imo, is if you go back to all the post match threads you will find every Pittonet detractor would have suggested "horse for courses" is worthy of consideration. Posters pick and choose. Its a lottery this week.

I'm shocked to see criticism and a lack of criticism for both TDK and Pittonet. Bloody extreme either way to say the least. Bolton had a saying about not getting too high or too low.

Losing is painful, and sometimes the catalyst for some of the ugliest abuse towards our own. I think we're seeing that after this game too.

Carlton will bounce back.

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Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

Nice tidy work Bondi .

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All my dangerous friends

Jack Silvagni has been our biggest loss this year

1. Competes as a ruckman, sometimes neutralises, sometimes wins, sometimes unbalances the oppo ruckman and of course, sometimes gets beaten. Removes the 2 designated ruckman discussion, especially if Harry also shares say 10% of the load
2. Becomes another hungry midfielder when gravity takes effect***
3. Plays as a 3rd tall HF and from what I've seen, fights for his life to keep the ball in our fwd line-TEAM DEFENCE 101

***The late Phil Walsh was lauded as an amazing coach. A few people in the media who have played under him have said that for him, the most important stat is 'ground ball gets'
And as I cheekily mentioned above, ground ball gets is a function of gravity causing the ball to come to the ground

Midfielders need to be able to nullify or "rove" to oppo ruckmen as well as their own. One thing is certain; that ball will come down

if our mids just want silver service from Pitto, then they don't have a team first attitude

1 designated ruckman is enough n today's game, and add to that some really competitive back ups whose role is just to bring the ball down to the ground in a way where it's just a contested ball and not a "Nicholls down the throat of Gallagher" tap

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If I want your opinion, I'll give it to you!

not enough gets made of this fact. it's a very carlton thing of the last 2 decades. we almost need the ball on our terms, otherwise we lose the heart for the battle and roll over.

it's been happening since ratten and judd were running around and we fell (what, was it? 8 points??) just short of a prelim final against the eagles.

it's why the criticism, "downhill skiers" was ever coined about us.

OUR TEAM IS TO slow ,WE NEED TO INTRODUCE QUICK BALL MOVEMENT AND OUR U12 GAME PLAN WOW GET BALL AND BOOT BALL BLINDLY HOW ARE WE GOING TO WIN A FINAL PLAYING LIKE THIS. the GOOD NEWS WE HAVE TIME

i think matthews is very consistent and very accurate about his take on us:

we are a slow team, one of the slowest in the afl, with the worst defensive midfield in the whole afl not named west coast. two rucks, one being pittonet only accentuates this. for us to maximise our effect in the middle we need an athletic ruck who can also play at ground level, of which tdk is tailor-made for us.


just scraping over the line with the tall team (as all our wins have been with this set up) is not instilling confidence. yeah sure, charlie kicks straight, maybe we eek out another 8 point win.

the way we destroyed the cats by 65 was Collingwood, 2023-like dominance. we dominate with that team and that set up. why would we stray away from that blueprint?

i don't have the same vote of confidence in voss that you do - you come across as blind faith at times (no disrespect intended). voss was literally a game or two from being sacked last season, and it was only injuries that saved him - forcing him to move off his island he'd created for himself by his obsession with first use of the ball.





this kinda stuff boils my piss. haha

3 years into the job and he still is trying to figure out our list and looking over it. he needs to settle on a style and a gameplan and stop chopping it up. we are the only team in the comp with two top 5 key forwards ... two guys that have zero impact in pressure and turnover. to make the most of our unique position we need to run with one ruck. it's that simple.

we were absolutely flying with tdk. if he's hurt, pittonet gets his chance to prove himself as something more than a backup. until this point in his career, i still see him as nothing more than a back up ruck. he would need to add contested marking as a minimum to his bag to be anything more. getting around the ground and making contests is pretty essential too, and he is often 10-20m behind the bplay bcos his legs just don't move fast enough.




any way ... im done with this convo. the frustration is unbearable. in a season with no standout team (swans on MCG is still a massive question mark imo) we could have a proper run at a flag but team selections and voss's inability to shed his obsession for first use of the ball over pressure, defence and turnover will be our downfall.


if we run with tdk and pittonet; remember me and my words in the finals when we lose bondi.

Its uplifting and enlightening to read/ hear deeply thought through reasons we lost the battle, than simply blaming the ruck.



and Kingy says it again



https://www.sen.com.au/news/2024/07/15/the-area-of-concern-for-carlton-that-would-be-irking-michael-voss/

We won clearances but......we lost it outside the immediate contest.

Cerra fumbled a couple that turned into goals
TDK fumbled one going in the ruck in their FP and Ugle scored a goal.
There's 3 goals straight up.

We didn't get smashed as some like to think, or are making out.

Gotta give credit to Doggies and GWS who played their best games of the year against us in the last 2 weeks.

To think our task of making top 4 to put us into a good position to compete for the Holy Grail is not possible is fanciful.

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Everyone looks good in Navy Blue