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 Post subject: List Management 2023
PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2023 4:06 pm 
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Bert Deacon

Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2022 8:11 pm
Posts: 583
I'd love to see the stats for average goals per game, Harry vs Charlie, for games when the other isn't playing.

Something tells me Harry does better without Charlie than the other way around.

Another reason not to trade Harry.


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2023
PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2023 4:07 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko

Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:03 am
Posts: 24686
Location: Bondi Beach
Braithy wrote:
charlie was neutralised (imo) more bcos we missed martin, not harry - as per last time we played Dees... martin continually took level out into deep waters. when lever chose to shade towards charlie, martin made him pay. i'm not sure defenders are going to respect harry until he proves he can kick goals - which this year, just hasn't happened.


I know you stated you are "not sure" but are you alluding that defenders wouldn't respect Harry because of his kicking woes in 2023?

Come on Braithy. That's just wrong if you do. Watch what happens this Saturday. You will find his opponent wont let him off the leash and if he does, he will cause problems for the Lions.

Martin and Harry are part of the strongest forward mix we can name. So glad we have them both playing this week. Missed them badly last week.

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2023
PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2023 4:10 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 10:35 am
Posts: 17948
bondiblue wrote:
Assistant/ forwards coach Ash Hansen was “flabbergasted, bemused and shocked” by external commentary that the Blues’ forward line worked better without McKay.

“I understand it creates great debate … but this is a really easy question – we’re a better team with him in it,” he said.

“Sometimes it’s intangible what players can do for your group … I think guys walk taller when Harry’s out there, it reduces Charlie’s workload which allows him to be more energetic and dynamic in other contests because he’s not having to get to everything.

Harry is super important for us – I think in the last game he played he was the leading score involvement player on the ground before he went off.”


He can be as flabbergasted, shocked and bemused as he wants. AFL football is based upon results and our results are significantly better this year without Harry than with him.
If he wants to look at performance, look at TDK. Highest rated player on the ground in a final when he played the second tall/relieiving ruck.

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2023
PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2023 4:22 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 10:35 am
Posts: 17948
BamBam7 wrote:
I'd love to see the stats for average goals per game, Harry vs Charlie, for games when the other isn't playing.

Something tells me Harry does better without Charlie than the other way around.

Another reason not to trade Harry.


How about this stat. Carlton without Harry. 5 wins out of 5. Including 3 against top 4 sides
Games where Harry has been subbed out. 2 wins out of 2 against top 8 sides.
Wins and losses are the stats that matter. Premiership and ladder positions are not decided by stats per player per game.

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2023
PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2023 4:33 pm 
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Horrie Clover

Joined: Tue Nov 30, 2021 2:17 pm
Posts: 374
dannyboy wrote:
jpulice1969 wrote:
get some tough bodies Austin we have enough softies .


have you watched any of the last few months - I think we have plenty of tough bodies.

who are the tough bodies bodies that can bust a tackle winning by 2 pts covers alot ,glad we won though .


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2023
PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2023 4:52 pm 
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Rod Ashman

Joined: Fri May 18, 2007 2:10 pm
Posts: 2816
bondiblue wrote:
Here's some FACTS which need to be considered amongst all the FACTS referred to to prove we are better off without Harry.

Some Facts are not measured by AFL Fantasy or Champion, but by intangibles which also need to be considered. Such as the coach's opinion, Charlies opinion, the eye test, the game plan, and how the empirical facts may be skewed by one game.

Quote:
Just like Batman is stronger with Robin by his side, Charlie Curnow is a better player with Harry McKay on the park.

Carlton coach Michael Voss scoffs at suggestions that Harry McKay is not in the club’s best 22, which reared their head again on the weekend.

“I get somewhat bemused by some of the commentary around Harry,” Voss said on Saturday.

If we are to take that next step, he’s important to it. So if he’s available, he will be playing.”

Curnow describes playing with McKay as a “treat”, as the pair prepare to team up for Carlton’s preliminary final clash against the Brisbane Lions at the Gabba on Saturday night.

McKay might have missed two goals from close range that he should have kicked before he was concussed in the Blues’ elimination final win over Sydney.

However, Curnow missed his fellow key forward in last week’s semi-final win over Melbourne.

Are the Blues a better side with Harry McKay?
No way


Yes - Charlie is the man

Going toe-to-toe with Melbourne defender Steven May, Curnow had his second-lowest rated game of the year against the Demons with just nine disposals, five marks and one goal.

It has been somewhat of a trend for Curnow across the five matches that McKay has missed in the second half of this year.

With McKay in the side this season, Curnow has averaged 14.1 disposals, 7.5 marks, 8.4 score involvements and 3 goals.

From those five matches without McKay, Curnow averages 13.6 disposals, 6.1 marks, 6.5 score involvements and 3.6 goals.

One of the matches without McKay was Curnow’s 10-goal haul against West Coast in round 19, which skews the goals tally more than a little.

“The role doesn’t really change. It stays the same,” Curnow said on Monday when asked about McKay’s planned return.

“But it obviously helps me out heaps having ‘H’ back in as another tall forward target that can draw defenders and it helps the whole team.

You can work off each other and I don’t have to run to as many contests, which is nice. You kind of share loads a bit.

“He’s been out a few times and I’ve been out a few times (in previous seasons), so it’s always a treat when we get to play together.”


The pillars are ours for the next 6-7 years.


You need to move on from this, Bondi.

The only fact is he’ll be sh!+ until he plays for someone else, at which point he’ll be the gun we traded for speculative draft picks.


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2023
PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2023 5:10 pm 
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Bert Deacon

Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2022 8:11 pm
Posts: 583
Blue Vain wrote:
BamBam7 wrote:
I'd love to see the stats for average goals per game, Harry vs Charlie, for games when the other isn't playing.

Something tells me Harry does better without Charlie than the other way around.

Another reason not to trade Harry.


How about this stat. Carlton without Harry. 5 wins out of 5. Including 3 against top 4 sides
Games where Harry has been subbed out. 2 wins out of 2 against top 8 sides.
Wins and losses are the stats that matter. Premiership and ladder positions are not decided by stats per player per game.
That's a little oversimplistic, don't you think?

There were plenty of other changes, in both personnel and game plan, that led to our run of wins.

Charlie is clearly struggling without him, and teams have figured out that double teaming Charlie significantly reduces our ability to score.

Not sure how long this win streak without Harry lasts.


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2023
PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2023 5:33 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 10:35 am
Posts: 17948
2 more games would do me. :grin:

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2023
PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2023 5:40 pm 
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Craig Bradley

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 12:38 pm
Posts: 7640
Apparently JSOS has signed 2 year deal


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2023
PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2023 5:43 pm 
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Ken Hunter

Joined: Thu May 11, 2006 6:11 pm
Posts: 14900
frank dardew wrote:
Apparently JSOS has signed 2 year deal

Andy Maher announced it this afternoon.
I think there may be a story on channel 7 news as I just heard there is good news for Carlton supporters.


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2023
PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2023 5:46 pm 
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Ken Hunter

Joined: Thu May 11, 2006 6:11 pm
Posts: 14900
Just been confirmed by the club.


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2023
PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2023 5:59 pm 
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Craig Bradley

Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2005 4:04 pm
Posts: 7458
Location: Bendigo
If the Twitter/X announcement is any indication, they’ve let the early 2010s nitwits back on the marketing team.

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2023
PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2023 6:47 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 10:35 am
Posts: 17948
frank dardew wrote:
Apparently JSOS has signed 2 year deal


Great news. :thumbsup:

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2023
PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2023 6:55 pm 
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formerly BlueRob
User avatar

Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2005 12:45 pm
Posts: 3072
:clap:

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2023
PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2023 9:05 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko

Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:03 am
Posts: 24686
Location: Bondi Beach
DesEnglish wrote:
bondiblue wrote:
Here's some FACTS which need to be considered amongst all the FACTS referred to to prove we are better off without Harry.

Some Facts are not measured by AFL Fantasy or Champion, but by intangibles which also need to be considered. Such as the coach's opinion, Charlies opinion, the eye test, the game plan, and how the empirical facts may be skewed by one game.

Quote:
Just like Batman is stronger with Robin by his side, Charlie Curnow is a better player with Harry McKay on the park.

Carlton coach Michael Voss scoffs at suggestions that Harry McKay is not in the club’s best 22, which reared their head again on the weekend.

“I get somewhat bemused by some of the commentary around Harry,” Voss said on Saturday.

If we are to take that next step, he’s important to it. So if he’s available, he will be playing.”

Curnow describes playing with McKay as a “treat”, as the pair prepare to team up for Carlton’s preliminary final clash against the Brisbane Lions at the Gabba on Saturday night.

McKay might have missed two goals from close range that he should have kicked before he was concussed in the Blues’ elimination final win over Sydney.

However, Curnow missed his fellow key forward in last week’s semi-final win over Melbourne.

Are the Blues a better side with Harry McKay?
No way


Yes - Charlie is the man

Going toe-to-toe with Melbourne defender Steven May, Curnow had his second-lowest rated game of the year against the Demons with just nine disposals, five marks and one goal.

It has been somewhat of a trend for Curnow across the five matches that McKay has missed in the second half of this year.

With McKay in the side this season, Curnow has averaged 14.1 disposals, 7.5 marks, 8.4 score involvements and 3 goals.

From those five matches without McKay, Curnow averages 13.6 disposals, 6.1 marks, 6.5 score involvements and 3.6 goals.

One of the matches without McKay was Curnow’s 10-goal haul against West Coast in round 19, which skews the goals tally more than a little.

“The role doesn’t really change. It stays the same,” Curnow said on Monday when asked about McKay’s planned return.

“But it obviously helps me out heaps having ‘H’ back in as another tall forward target that can draw defenders and it helps the whole team.

You can work off each other and I don’t have to run to as many contests, which is nice. You kind of share loads a bit.

“He’s been out a few times and I’ve been out a few times (in previous seasons), so it’s always a treat when we get to play together.”


The pillars are ours for the next 6-7 years.


You need to move on from this, Bondi.

The only fact is he’ll be sh!+ until he plays for someone else, at which point he’ll be the gun we traded for speculative draft picks.


Yeah right.

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2023
PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2023 9:07 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko

Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:03 am
Posts: 24686
Location: Bondi Beach
frank dardew wrote:
Apparently JSOS has signed 2 year deal


Culture

Gives 100% for the jumper.

Not sure what his position is.
I prefer ruck rover like his nono.

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2023
PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2023 9:15 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko

Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:03 am
Posts: 24686
Location: Bondi Beach
Blue Vain wrote:
2 more games would do me. :grin:


Basically, there's those who are glad the club has Harry's commitment to the team for another 6 years, and those who don't.

When we had 200cm Jones, we had the perfect spine to build a team. Harry was one of those in that spine, and Charlie.
We lose Jones and we lost a lot. Young didn't come on. We've had to revert to smaller tall players for big jobs.

We want a flag from Harry before we send him off.
We need a flag with this lot of stars, and great workers around them. The team has taken 7 years to get to this point with Harry and Charlie our focus points. Lets not wreck it.

The Squad has got us to a Prelim.

Lets hope for your sake Harry and Charlie combo gets us a flag this year. :wink:
Otherwise, Harry and Charlie are going nowhere till they deliver.

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2023
PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2023 9:36 pm 
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Craig Bradley
User avatar

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 7:40 pm
Posts: 7173
bondiblue wrote:
Blue Vain wrote:
2 more games would do me. :grin:


Basically, there's those who are glad the club has Harry's commitment to the team for another 6 years, and those who don't.

When we had 200cm Jones, we had the perfect spine to build a team. Harry was one of those in that spine, and Charlie.
We lose Jones and we lost a lot. Young didn't come on. We've had to revert to smaller tall players for big jobs.

We want a flag from Harry before we send him off.
We need a flag with this lot of stars, and great workers around them. The team has taken 7 years to get to this point with Harry and Charlie our focus points. Lets not wreck it.

The Squad has got us to a Prelim.

Lets hope for your sake Harry and Charlie combo gets us a flag this year. :wink:
Otherwise, Harry and Charlie are going nowhere till they deliver.


I"m with you Chesty Bondi . Charlie and Harry are the envy of every Club in the Comp .

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2023
PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2023 5:43 am 
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Craig Bradley
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2005 3:27 pm
Posts: 6158
Location: Conservative Brisbane :O(
Crusader wrote:
If the Twitter/X announcement is any indication, they’ve let the early 2010s nitwits back on the marketing team.
If its the monkey thing i saw on fbook, I don't get it

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2023
PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2023 6:00 am 
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Craig Bradley
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2012 4:42 pm
Posts: 6902
Mickstar wrote:

I"m with you Chesty Bondi . Charlie and Harry are the envy of every Club in the Comp .




i'm not sure they are. harry's form isn't the envy of anything. maybe their potential is the envy, but harry's kicking isn't even vfl standard at the minute, and it hands over momentum to other team and deflates us when keeps missing goals from 5-10-15-20 metres out.


it's a harsh truth, but right now on current form casboult is a better afl player than harry.





for me ... there's some arrogance with harry and his kicking. people have offered to help him in offseasons and during the season, he turned them down and said he was fine. but he's not fine.


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