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PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2023 11:33 am 
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Ken Hunter
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He says history shows you need a good turnover game in September, but have any finalists had a clearance game as good as ours? I'm not worried, we've had three wins over Top 2 opponents in the past month and a half.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2023 12:02 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan
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Yeah, I find that logic weird.

If you had the best half a dozen mids in the league and they got it out of the centre 99% of the time and straight down the throats of your key forwards you wouldn't need any scores turnovers.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2023 1:58 pm 
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John Nicholls

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GWS wrote:
Yeah, I find that logic weird.

If you had the best half a dozen mids in the league and they got it out of the centre 99% of the time and straight down the throats of your key forwards you wouldn't need any scores turnovers.


Indeed, you have to have a poor clearance game to have a good turnover game.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2023 2:21 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko

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GreatEx wrote:
He says history shows you need a good turnover game in September, but have any finalists had a clearance game as good as ours? I'm not worried, we've had three wins over Top 2 opponents in the past month and a half.



Exactly

Not well thought out by Hoyne.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2023 2:33 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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Keats…?


kindest regards tommi

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2023 2:34 pm 
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Rod Ashman

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Also, I suspect their data is skewed by recent Richmond finals dominance who used a turnover model.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2023 2:57 pm 
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Craig Bradley

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GWS wrote:
Yeah, I find that logic weird.

If you had the best half a dozen mids in the league and they got it out of the centre 99% of the time and straight down the throats of your key forwards you wouldn't need any scores turnovers.

Solid plan.

What about when the opposition take the field?

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2023 3:49 pm 
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Geoff Southby
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GreatEx wrote:
He says history shows you need a good turnover game in September, but have any finalists had a clearance game as good as ours? I'm not worried, we've had three wins over Top 2 opponents in the past month and a half.

In a few years time the stats will show you need a better contested game to win flags

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2023 4:29 pm 
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Craig Bradley

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jezzarules wrote:
GreatEx wrote:
He says history shows you need a good turnover game in September, but have any finalists had a clearance game as good as ours? I'm not worried, we've had three wins over Top 2 opponents in the past month and a half.

In a few years time the stats will show you need a better contested game to win flags

:?

Turnovers are a product of the contested game.

Hoyne isn’t talking Swahili here. He’s just saying that the overwhelming majority of premiership teams have been able to score from turnovers. That’s: contested ball, contested win (turnover), disposal chain, score.

Our game style leans towards the stoppages - i.e. contested ball, stoppage, clearance win, disposal chain, score.

Hence, less sustainable.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2023 9:25 pm 
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Craig Bradley
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jake_h03 wrote:
Sidefx wrote:
diesel95 wrote:
Sidefx wrote:

I agree with this also.
Last season we were playing more like the Pies (chaos football), but without the durabilty or speed that they have and as a result we got smacked with injuries.
The start of this season we were playing more like Geelong (controlled football) but without the skills, experience or footy IQ.
We have added back the Pies style of football again but it comes at a cost to our durabilty (Kennedy, McGovern etc).
Clearly neither style for our current playing group is either durable or finals winning footy.
We need to add speed, skills and durabilty and unfortuantly we need to move on some current key players in order to get this balance right.
If we can control the play like Geelong but also move the ball forward like the Pies we will not only be finals bound but actual premiership contenders.
I think Voss and co know this and you can see we have played a more evenly balanced game between the two styles in the last few games.
What we have been missing in team balance with the return of some of the annually injured has been pretty obvious over the last couple of weeks.
It'll be interesting to see what we do at the trade table at the end of the year to see how invested the coaching group is at getting the right balance of skill, speed and durabilty in the playing group.
This week has the potential to both really expose what we are lacking and what we are strong in.
Either way, I still have faith in Voss as head coach.



“not finals winning” football?!

dry up.

I stand by this comment.
We had a really really good win yesterday and our attacking ball movement is getting much better as well as our defensive pressure in the F50.
My perspective on yesterday is, they didn't have Dixon who woud've monstered our defence, they didn't have McKenzie who is good also and they lost a lot of run and skill without JHF who has been playing dangerous footy in the middle and up forward. The McKay loss could negate McKenzie but Kennedy as good as he is has nothing on JHF from what I have seen the last couple of rounds when he has played, the kid is a freak. And Dixon would've done all sorts of damage up forward putting enormous body pressure on our defence creating opportunites for other players to get in the game.
Our pressure was elite and our team performance was as even as I've seen in a long long time, but there were still moments, mostly last 10min of each quarter where players like Rozee, Butters and Houston could've absolutely torn us appart with their speed, skill and IQ if the players kicking for goals weren't so bad.
Don't get me wrong though, Voss and co are building a great game plan and the team are excecuting the roles well, but it still doesn't mean we lack any less speed, foot skills or footy IQ. Durablilty, ablilty to play 4 quarters and foot skills are still lacking for some players in the team and in finals footy that's when they will be exposed the most.
The best part about the win yesterday was the mental toughness and the belief in the playing group that they can win the tough games and put teams away also, great attributes to win finals and good to see the club, Voss and the players all buying into it as this is the hardest thing to do in footy.
If we beat the filth and the Demons, I'll be happy to re-check my perspective..........fingers crossed we do.


Still stand by it?


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I'm yet to be shown otherwise.
1. Still haven't won a final yet (hopefully that changes).
2. GCS shown how slow, lacking of foot skills and at time lack of footy IQ in the first quarter we are/can be.
Lucky our contested game is so good or we would've been pantsed and in fact it showed how good our mental toughness is as per my comment and that is what helps wins games.
3. 13.13 is a lack of kicking skills, some of those shots on goal were terrible.
4. As too our delivery into the F50 in the Melbourne game in the first quarter.
5. My comments regarding durability have also been true with the amounts of injuries we have had, thankfully Voss's game plan and roles are well defined and we have been able to call the next man up.

As I've said before we are playing a great brand of contested football and has made us look great, the inclusions of some players that have filled our speed (Cunningham, Dow), IQ (Martin, Owies) and skills (Martin, Marchbank to a degree) void have definitely helped and more so proved my points as long as they are on the park (durability).

And I don't disagree with the article from Hoyne also, scoring form turnovers is a big part of finals footy and we need to work on that, especially for finals.
That ontop of our contested game would make us a shoe in for no. 17.

Loving what Voss and co are doing and what we are producing, it's a surreal feeling to go into a game and know we can win it.
The next big test is finals pressure when the game gets turned up a notch or two.


Last edited by Sidefx on Thu Aug 24, 2023 4:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2023 7:29 am 
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Craig Bradley
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the problem i see is, we've been playing at an intense level of contested footy and hunting for so long now. finals is a completely different season of football, where every team will bring that same intensity we have brought for 2 months.


do we have another gear to go to and will that gear be as dominant as it was in the regular season? my feeling is no. we'll bring another level - whether that's sustainable for 4 qtrs we will find out; and i'm not sure that alone will make us as dominant as what it has in the reg season.


the scoring from turnover stat isn't just about adding to the scoresheet - to do it well; is also about how well you move the ball, run, spread, start handball chains and efficiency with the ball etc

i'd like to see our stats for this last 9 games? i know we're number 1 ranked in defense and were top 3 for offense - where was our turnover score at?


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2023 9:01 am 
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Rod Ashman

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I think we have been playing a finals brand of football, perhaps except last week.
The question for me is whether we can maintain that after playing this way for so long. The fresh legs of key players will help a lot - Walsh, Cerra, McGovern, Kennedy, McKay and possibly where Boyd overtakes Cincotta.
However, numerous examples of teams clawing their way into finals after starting way back in the field but then falling flat once they make it eg. Sydney a few years ago when they lost the first 5 or 6 games.

I’m equally nervous about playing GWS, Sydney or StK in the first week of the finals - all capable of making life difficult for us. and even the Dogs, whilst horribly out of form and something clearly not right, have the ability to play well on a given day.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2023 9:23 am 
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Harry Vallence
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17th Premiership wrote:
I think we have been playing a finals brand of football, perhaps except last week.
The question for me is whether we can maintain that after playing this way for so long. The fresh legs of key players will help a lot - Walsh, Cerra, McGovern, Kennedy, McKay and possibly where Boyd overtakes Cincotta.
However, numerous examples of teams clawing their way into finals after starting way back in the field but then falling flat once they make it eg. Sydney a few years ago when they lost the first 5 or 6 games.

I’m equally nervous about playing GWS, Sydney or StK in the first week of the finals - all capable of making life difficult for us. and even the Dogs, whilst horribly out of form and something clearly not right, have the ability to play well on a given day.


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Is there anyone is the top 8 you wouldn’t be nervous about playing in week 1 of the finals? Finals aren’t meant to be easy, we’re going to have to be at our best to win.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2023 9:30 am 
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Ken Hunter
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17th Premiership wrote:
.
However, numerous examples of teams clawing their way into finals after starting way back in the field but then falling flat once they make


I've been thinking about this too. In my mind it seems this effect is more common than teams that carry their form into the finals/playoffs. My hope is that locking in a finals berth a week early will make a big difference. Then there's the bye, which seems to favour the lower ranked finalists. Conclusion: give us the cup!


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2023 10:10 am 
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Alex Jesaulenko

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Braithy wrote:
the problem i see is, we've been playing at an intense level of contested footy and hunting for so long now. finals is a completely different season of football, where every team will bring that same intensity we have brought for 2 months.


do we have another gear to go to and will that gear be as dominant as it was in the regular season? my feeling is no. we'll bring another level - whether that's sustainable for 4 qtrs we will find out; and i'm not sure that alone will make us as dominant as what it has in the reg season.


the scoring from turnover stat isn't just about adding to the scoresheet - to do it well; is also about how well you move the ball, run, spread, start handball chains and efficiency with the ball etc

i'd like to see our stats for this last 9 games? i know we're number 1 ranked in defense and were top 3 for offense - where was our turnover score at?


Does the addition of Walsh and Cerra take us up a gear?
Both brilliant midfield runners and the run for 4 Qtrs.
Not trying to offend but they offer much more than their replacements Dow and is it Fisher in a roundabout way.
Fisher has been thrown as the loose down back to provide run that's ben missing.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2023 10:22 am 
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Rod Ashman

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Blue Boys wrote:
17th Premiership wrote:
I think we have been playing a finals brand of football, perhaps except last week.
The question for me is whether we can maintain that after playing this way for so long. The fresh legs of key players will help a lot - Walsh, Cerra, McGovern, Kennedy, McKay and possibly where Boyd overtakes Cincotta.
However, numerous examples of teams clawing their way into finals after starting way back in the field but then falling flat once they make it eg. Sydney a few years ago when they lost the first 5 or 6 games.

I’m equally nervous about playing GWS, Sydney or StK in the first week of the finals - all capable of making life difficult for us. and even the Dogs, whilst horribly out of form and something clearly not right, have the ability to play well on a given day.


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Is there anyone is the top 8 you wouldn’t be nervous about playing in week 1 of the finals? Finals aren’t meant to be easy, we’re going to have to be at our best to win.


No, I’m nervous about anyone we play in finals! In fact every week of the year.
I’m simultaneously confident we can win if we bring our best for the whole game. But i think any team can beat us if we don’t bring 100% application and intensity.
And hopefully, the players have a similar mindset.
Not saying I don’t think we’ll win - just respecting the quality of opposition and the fine line between teams if we are 5% off.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2023 10:26 am 
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Harry Vallence
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17th Premiership wrote:
Blue Boys wrote:
17th Premiership wrote:
I think we have been playing a finals brand of football, perhaps except last week.
The question for me is whether we can maintain that after playing this way for so long. The fresh legs of key players will help a lot - Walsh, Cerra, McGovern, Kennedy, McKay and possibly where Boyd overtakes Cincotta.
However, numerous examples of teams clawing their way into finals after starting way back in the field but then falling flat once they make it eg. Sydney a few years ago when they lost the first 5 or 6 games.

I’m equally nervous about playing GWS, Sydney or StK in the first week of the finals - all capable of making life difficult for us. and even the Dogs, whilst horribly out of form and something clearly not right, have the ability to play well on a given day.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Is there anyone is the top 8 you wouldn’t be nervous about playing in week 1 of the finals? Finals aren’t meant to be easy, we’re going to have to be at our best to win.


No, I’m nervous about anyone we play in finals! In fact every week of the year.
I’m simultaneously confident we can win if we bring our best for the whole game. But i think any team can beat us if we don’t bring 100% application and intensity.
And hopefully, the players have a similar mindset.
Not saying I don’t think we’ll win - just respecting the quality of opposition and the fine line between teams if we are 5% off.


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I totally agree. If we have a lapse in a final like we did against GC, we won’t be coming back from 40 points down.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2023 12:34 pm 
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Craig Bradley
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i've also got a really strong feeling this finals series will the closest and most contested in maybe afl history. the difference between a win and loss will be marginal, most games decided by a kick or two.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2023 4:12 pm 
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Craig Bradley

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Braithy wrote:
the scoring from turnover stat isn't just about adding to the scoresheet - to do it well; is also about how well you move the ball, run, spread, start handball chains and efficiency with the ball etc

i'd like to see our stats for this last 9 games? i know we're number 1 ranked in defense and were top 3 for offense - where was our turnover score at?

That’s the exact stat Hoyne brought to the table.

We’re +4 points over that nine weeks, compared to the previous 13. Ranked well outside the top 8.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2023 4:45 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko

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Crusader wrote:
Braithy wrote:
the scoring from turnover stat isn't just about adding to the scoresheet - to do it well; is also about how well you move the ball, run, spread, start handball chains and efficiency with the ball etc

i'd like to see our stats for this last 9 games? i know we're number 1 ranked in defense and were top 3 for offense - where was our turnover score at?

That’s the exact stat Hoyne brought to the table.

We’re +4 points over that nine weeks, compared to the previous 13. Ranked well outside the top 8.


So the side kicks in the ball gets to the wing there is a stoppage or ball up or throw in created from Carltons defense
We win the clearance and kick the goal.
Is that a score from clearance or a score from turnover because in my mind creating the stoppage caused the turnover

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