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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2023
PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2023 3:36 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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Location: seaside
Oooh yeah….

don’t ever change…nobody change…!

that’s what family is…!


kindest regards tommi

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2023
PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2023 3:38 pm 
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Craig Bradley
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Posts: 7173
tommi wrote:
Oooh yeah….

don’t ever change…nobody change…!

that’s what family is…!


kindest regards tommi


Exactly . Words of wisdom there Tom .

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2023
PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2023 4:00 pm 
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Harry Vallence
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Joined: Tue Apr 26, 2016 1:04 pm
Posts: 1191
Location: Brisbane
GreatEx wrote:
Braithy wrote:
its like war and peace in here at times... 12 pages describing a tree etc


I read W&P for the first time just before the pandemic. I wish he'd spent more time writing about trees, his prose is beautiful (even in translation). Instead the book devotes copious pages talking about a bunch of inbred aristocrats that I couldn't give a toss about. I was hoping such an epic novel would cover a broad cross section of pre-revolutionary Russian society but instead it's all about rich cauliflower flouncing about the battlefield and going to balls. Balls to that! Still a good book, but I won't read it again.

If its trees you want to read endless pages on, its Lord of the Rings you need to read

Seriously, its my lasting memory of the book which I read just on 30 years ago!


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2023
PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2023 9:51 pm 
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Craig Bradley
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Posts: 6363
GreatEx wrote:
FarmerBlue wrote:
One thing I have leanred this year is not to right off players so quickly. I wouldn't have given anything for Fogarty Cuningham or Fisher 10 weeks ago.

LOB has another year to go and with some maturity, a new culture and maybe even a change of position who knows.


This is my take, too. Right now, LOB is right at the bottom of our depth chart and I wouldn't have him in our first barring an injury catastrophe in the coming weeks. And I say that as someone who has steadfastly defended the kid from the many slings and arrows over the years. However, like you, I remember thinking Fog and Fish were completely useless only a couple of months ago, and that Dow was too deficient in several/most key areas to be considered a first-teamer. So that's why I was intrigued to hear LOB was playing midfield minutes in the twos, because I now have faith in the club's ability to reinvent a player and/or unlock his potential. Too late for LOB this year, but it sounded like there was a plan for 2024.

I can also understand Sidey being a bit annoyed with Bondi, who has been incessantly bagging LOB in recent days. No one is saying he should be in the team at the moment, so it comes across as axe grinding. But we all need a whipping boy... Sidey's given Acres his fair share. :D


In all fairness I actually like Acres and Hollands, as frustrating as they have been at times.
I have been making a point this season about nit picking every disposal and only looking at the negatives of the above players to show how annoying biased, negative, and targeting comments directed to some of our players can be on here.
I don't hate any players on our list like some and while a player is wearing the navy blue I will support them to the end even if they are not good enough for the AFLW side.
As for the ludicrous suggestion of paying out LOBs contract and taking into perspective we have just signed on two Irish recruits, we clearly need all the money we have and having him on the list for another year and possibly trying him in the centre (if that is what is happening), I like you guys can't see an issue with that.


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2023
PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2023 11:26 am 
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Alex Jesaulenko

Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:03 am
Posts: 24686
Location: Bondi Beach
Mickstar wrote:
Anyhow , keep it goin" Bondi , i like your stuff .


I will, and I do, and I'll explain my modus operandi, and braithy will just have to avoid reading the folowing:

I was criticised for my call on Silvagni in the reserves for suggesting he looked rusty, and not in good form with stray kicking, which is what I saw. I know a little bit about footy and what SOS can bring.
Turns out he wasn't right, and did strain his knee again. Explains the wayward kicking, including 15m passes and my view.

I try and explain my position with SOS evidence because it shits me when someone says so and so had a bad game last week as if its fact, when in fact, they haven't weighed all the evidence and role the player played. Throw away lines are easy, and a nonsense without reason.

I was criritcised posting what I saw of LOB, as was called out for outright bagging.

I've been criticised about my views on Dow's defensive game, despite the fact Ive been a fan from round 1 this year and stuck up for his recall since then.

I got criticised about my views on Durdin and Motlop with their influence waning, and not good enough because they are just developing and maybe tiring, and they did get dropped eventually.

I got criticised about my views on Fisher, and finally he was dropped, and all of the sudden admission he is weak defensively.
'
Doesn't mean I dont like the player or disrespect the skillset they bring to the team, but I feel there's the parts of the game they need to perform in and that's where judgement is handed down looking at the evidence.

We have the ball, They have the ball, the ball is neutral. Simple game.
Every player has a role to play in each of the above periods: defensively or offensively.
There's more to a players game than raw disposal stats if you look at the game and player's role.

I explained my disappointment with the club's fixation on Gresham as a FA, and the response was to calm down, and just read the crap about his 2021 season. Just because he WAS good 3 years ago, and not that good this year, doesn't equal success at Carlton. Now I read club is cooling on him. I'm not surprised.

I know Vossy's preference for the 2 rucks, and explained why, and some posters took that as I don't like SOS. I never said anything of the kind. I'm just posting what I was told and to prepare posters of the inevitable.

In fact I like Sidex' input because he backs it up with data. I criticise his data if its used to suit an argument rather than looking at the now.
I'm going to call up flaws in poster's argument or claims as I see them, and if the poster bites instead of discussing the flaw, big deal.

There's going to be a lot of faves miss a spot in the Finals. They are obvious. Get use to it.

and thanks Mickstar. I'm on this site because of posters like you. Old timers union.

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2023
PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2023 11:29 am 
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Alex Jesaulenko

Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:03 am
Posts: 24686
Location: Bondi Beach
tommi wrote:
Is this about me…?


kindest regards tommi







i can see Bondy back in the ancient days of
Greece…in the Agora there…up on a big flat stone…
a couple of books in hand wearing sandals…!

the people would gather…listen with intent
and the odd taunt from the back…”PREPI NA PEKSI
O SILVAGNI”…!


Nah. more like, SKASE RE. FERRE ENA OUZAKI RE, KE THA TA POOME. ELA, KATSE KATO. What's this about Silvana?

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2023
PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2023 11:40 am 
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Alex Jesaulenko

Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:03 am
Posts: 24686
Location: Bondi Beach
Sidefx wrote:
GreatEx wrote:
FarmerBlue wrote:
One thing I have leanred this year is not to right off players so quickly. I wouldn't have given anything for Fogarty Cuningham or Fisher 10 weeks ago.

LOB has another year to go and with some maturity, a new culture and maybe even a change of position who knows.


This is my take, too. Right now, LOB is right at the bottom of our depth chart and I wouldn't have him in our first barring an injury catastrophe in the coming weeks. And I say that as someone who has steadfastly defended the kid from the many slings and arrows over the years. However, like you, I remember thinking Fog and Fish were completely useless only a couple of months ago, and that Dow was too deficient in several/most key areas to be considered a first-teamer. So that's why I was intrigued to hear LOB was playing midfield minutes in the twos, because I now have faith in the club's ability to reinvent a player and/or unlock his potential. Too late for LOB this year, but it sounded like there was a plan for 2024.

I can also understand Sidey being a bit annoyed with Bondi, who has been incessantly bagging LOB in recent days. No one is saying he should be in the team at the moment, so it comes across as axe grinding. But we all need a whipping boy... Sidey's given Acres his fair share. :D


In all fairness I actually like Acres and Hollands, as frustrating as they have been at times.
I have been making a point this season about nit picking every disposal and only looking at the negatives of the above players to show how annoying biased, negative, and targeting comments directed to some of our players can be on here.
I don't hate any players on our list like some and while a player is wearing the navy blue I will support them to the end even if they are not good enough for the AFLW side.
As for the ludicrous suggestion of paying out LOBs contract and taking into perspective we have just signed on two Irish recruits, we clearly need all the money we have and having him on the list for another year and possibly trying him in the centre (if that is what is happening), I like you guys can't see an issue with that.


Listen Sidey, how about taking it serious that I'm not the one who made this up, but I do agree with the reasoning I was told.

The paying out of a cheap contract has seriously being thought about, and continues to be. Everything is on the table. That's how List Management works.

Wait till the season and trade period is over if you can't understand the very basic reasoning why it MAY be LOB and his contract to go.

We have to get rid of 2 Rookies for a start. Capiche? We have to make another rookie spot available, if we are to retain a Primary List player who is delisted to make room for the 3 new additions to the Primary list. How hard is that to comprehend. I'm trying to help you FMD. Do you get it? Is it not worth Austin and co disussing this.

Have a read what Cazzeman posted about LOB. It aint news. Are you still stuck in round 23 2022? Well its not. Its 2023 and its getting harder by the year to keep everyone's little favourites. Get use to it. I don't hate LOB, but he wont be around at the end of this year or next. Take my word.

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2023
PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2023 11:55 am 
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Alex Jesaulenko

Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:03 am
Posts: 24686
Location: Bondi Beach
bondiblue

Quote:
LOB was in the midfield group at the start of a game where our midfield staples in Dow Fogarty and Ed were missing, and looks like coach went for a bigger body in the midfield, with Carroll and Ramshaw, instead of Moshetti and Ramshaw (really small mids). His time in the midfield lasted maybe one quarter. Was it a reinvention of the player' role? I don't know, but it didn't look like it to me. Why didn't he go back into the midfield in that game, and the games thereafter? If you see that moment in time as a case of reinventing LOB, good luck to you.


Have a think about who LOB sits behind for the wing.
Have a think about who LOB sits behind for a spot in the midfield.

Is he going to get a game in the AFL in either of those positions this year? Next year?

Oh yeah, don't forget the 2 new Irish boys and the Campo boys coming too.

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 Post subject: List Management 2023
PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2023 12:23 pm 
Offline
Rod Ashman

Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2006 8:22 am
Posts: 2741
bondiblue wrote:
Mickstar wrote:
Anyhow , keep it goin" Bondi , i like your stuff .


I will, and I do, and I'll explain my modus operandi, and braithy will just have to avoid reading the folowing:

I was criticised for my call on Silvagni in the reserves for suggesting he looked rusty, and not in good form with stray kicking, which is what I saw. I know a little bit about footy and what SOS can bring.
Turns out he wasn't right, and did strain his knee again. Explains the wayward kicking, including 15m passes and my view.

I try and explain my position with SOS evidence because it shits me when someone says so and so had a bad game last week as if its fact, when in fact, they haven't weighed all the evidence and role the player played. Throw away lines are easy, and a nonsense without reason.

I was criritcised posting what I saw of LOB, as was called out for outright bagging.

I've been criticised about my views on Dow's defensive game, despite the fact Ive been a fan from round 1 this year and stuck up for his recall since then.

I got criticised about my views on Durdin and Motlop with their influence waning, and not good enough because they are just developing and maybe tiring, and they did get dropped eventually.

I got criticised about my views on Fisher, and finally he was dropped, and all of the sudden admission he is weak defensively.
'
Doesn't mean I dont like the player or disrespect the skillset they bring to the team, but I feel there's the parts of the game they need to perform in and that's where judgement is handed down looking at the evidence.

We have the ball, They have the ball, the ball is neutral. Simple game.
Every player has a role to play in each of the above periods: defensively or offensively.
There's more to a players game than raw disposal stats if you look at the game and player's role.

I explained my disappointment with the club's fixation on Gresham as a FA, and the response was to calm down, and just read the crap about his 2021 season. Just because he WAS good 3 years ago, and not that good this year, doesn't equal success at Carlton. Now I read club is cooling on him. I'm not surprised.

I know Vossy's preference for the 2 rucks, and explained why, and some posters took that as I don't like SOS. I never said anything of the kind. I'm just posting what I was told and to prepare posters of the inevitable.

In fact I like Sidex' input because he backs it up with data. I criticise his data if its used to suit an argument rather than looking at the now.
I'm going to call up flaws in poster's argument or claims as I see them, and if the poster bites instead of discussing the flaw, big deal.

There's going to be a lot of faves miss a spot in the Finals. They are obvious. Get use to it.

and thanks Mickstar. I'm on this site because of posters like you. Old timers union.


FWIW I love your posts and the thought you put into them. Also love thoughtful posts from others who may have a different view. Helps me enjoy the game and engagement about our Blues more.
Unfortunately I tend to see the more obvious things and often miss the more subtle stuff, how we set up away from the immediate contest etc…
But that is the beauty of this game and our team - there are different layers off field and on field which all have an impact. I see some but not others.
I appreciate all the insights.
I also love the pithy one liners which make me laugh and provide much needed comic relief!

PS. Please don’t waste our resources on Gresham, Vossy… :-)


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2023
PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2023 1:06 pm 
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Craig Bradley
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Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 7:40 pm
Posts: 7173
17th Premiership wrote:
bondiblue wrote:
Mickstar wrote:
Anyhow , keep it goin" Bondi , i like your stuff .


I will, and I do, and I'll explain my modus operandi, and braithy will just have to avoid reading the folowing:

I was criticised for my call on Silvagni in the reserves for suggesting he looked rusty, and not in good form with stray kicking, which is what I saw. I know a little bit about footy and what SOS can bring.
Turns out he wasn't right, and did strain his knee again. Explains the wayward kicking, including 15m passes and my view.

I try and explain my position with SOS evidence because it shits me when someone says so and so had a bad game last week as if its fact, when in fact, they haven't weighed all the evidence and role the player played. Throw away lines are easy, and a nonsense without reason.

I was criritcised posting what I saw of LOB, as was called out for outright bagging.

I've been criticised about my views on Dow's defensive game, despite the fact Ive been a fan from round 1 this year and stuck up for his recall since then.

I got criticised about my views on Durdin and Motlop with their influence waning, and not good enough because they are just developing and maybe tiring, and they did get dropped eventually.

I got criticised about my views on Fisher, and finally he was dropped, and all of the sudden admission he is weak defensively.
'
Doesn't mean I dont like the player or disrespect the skillset they bring to the team, but I feel there's the parts of the game they need to perform in and that's where judgement is handed down looking at the evidence.

We have the ball, They have the ball, the ball is neutral. Simple game.
Every player has a role to play in each of the above periods: defensively or offensively.
There's more to a players game than raw disposal stats if you look at the game and player's role.

I explained my disappointment with the club's fixation on Gresham as a FA, and the response was to calm down, and just read the crap about his 2021 season. Just because he WAS good 3 years ago, and not that good this year, doesn't equal success at Carlton. Now I read club is cooling on him. I'm not surprised.

I know Vossy's preference for the 2 rucks, and explained why, and some posters took that as I don't like SOS. I never said anything of the kind. I'm just posting what I was told and to prepare posters of the inevitable.

In fact I like Sidex' input because he backs it up with data. I criticise his data if its used to suit an argument rather than looking at the now.
I'm going to call up flaws in poster's argument or claims as I see them, and if the poster bites instead of discussing the flaw, big deal.

There's going to be a lot of faves miss a spot in the Finals. They are obvious. Get use to it.

and thanks Mickstar. I'm on this site because of posters like you. Old timers union.


FWIW I love your posts and the thought you put into them. Also love thoughtful posts from others who may have a different view. Helps me enjoy the game and engagement about our Blues more.
Unfortunately I tend to see the more obvious things and often miss the more subtle stuff, how we set up away from the immediate contest etc…
But that is the beauty of this game and our team - there are different layers off field and on field which all have an impact. I see some but not others.
I appreciate all the insights.
I also love the pithy one liners which make me laugh and provide much needed comic relief!

PS. Please don’t waste our resources on Gresham, Vossy… :-)

Yeah , thats it 17P . Thats why i love TC . Lots of different opinions with a hell of a lot of work put into them . All fingers not the same with each being equally important . Keep it going not only Bondi but everyone .


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2023
PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2023 2:27 pm 
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Ken Hands
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Joined: Tue May 26, 2009 12:25 am
Posts: 456
Location: Kalgoorlie, WA
All this talk about trees has, and considering our small forwards heritage, surely we have to go with the Singing Tree - from The Three Amigos.

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2023
PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2023 4:23 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2005 10:24 am
Posts: 40291
Location: seaside
Hey Koro….

there are only one lot of talking trees my friend…
and that’s the dancing wood of…H.R. Puff’n’Stuff…!

for mine that is…!


kindest regards tommi

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2023
PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2023 5:51 pm 
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Craig Bradley
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Joined: Thu Sep 21, 2017 1:55 pm
Posts: 6363
tommi wrote:
Hey Koro….

there are only one lot of talking trees my friend…
and that’s the dancing wood of…H.R. Puff’n’Stuff…!

for mine that is…!


kindest regards tommi

Classic tommi :lol: :lol: :thumbsup:


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2023
PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2023 6:22 pm 
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Craig Bradley
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Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2012 4:42 pm
Posts: 6902
tommi wrote:
Hey Koro….

there are only one lot of talking trees my friend…
and that’s the dancing wood of…H.R. Puff’n’Stuff…!

for mine that is…!


kindest regards tommi


oh yeah! HR puffnstuff used to get my wood dancing too!


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2023
PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2023 9:14 am 
Offline
Bert Deacon

Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2022 8:11 pm
Posts: 583
bondiblue wrote:
bondiblue

Quote:
LOB was in the midfield group at the start of a game where our midfield staples in Dow Fogarty and Ed were missing, and looks like coach went for a bigger body in the midfield, with Carroll and Ramshaw, instead of Moshetti and Ramshaw (really small mids). His time in the midfield lasted maybe one quarter. Was it a reinvention of the player' role? I don't know, but it didn't look like it to me. Why didn't he go back into the midfield in that game, and the games thereafter? If you see that moment in time as a case of reinventing LOB, good luck to you.


Have a think about who LOB sits behind for the wing.
Have a think about who LOB sits behind for a spot in the midfield.

Is he going to get a game in the AFL in either of those positions this year? Next year?

Oh yeah, don't forget the 2 new Irish boys and the Campo boys coming too.
I agree with what you're saying. I don't think anyone expects him to be knocking on the door for either starting role.

I like the idea of giving him a crack in the middle because that position generally has more injuries, so depth is more important.

Especially if we lose Dow, then having someone else ready to jump in if required becomes even more important. Next man up and all that.

Plus, we have wingers up the wazoo now, with the Campo boys still to come, as you mentioned.

It's a shame it was only a quarter of footy, I reckon they should give him an extended run at it in the VFL next year. We have nothing to lose.


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2023
PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2023 11:48 am 
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Harry Vallence

Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2021 11:10 am
Posts: 1495
Jon Ralph reporting that North have offered Zac Fisher a FIVE year deal which will take over 2 years with us

We could trade for first round pick in next years mid seasond draft


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2023
PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2023 12:04 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko

Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:03 am
Posts: 24686
Location: Bondi Beach
tommi wrote:
Hey Koro….

there are only one lot of talking trees my friend…
and that’s the dancing wood of…H.R. Puff’n’Stuff…!

for mine that is…!


kindest regards tommi


What a memory. The early 70's.

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2023
PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2023 12:10 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko

Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:03 am
Posts: 24686
Location: Bondi Beach
FarmerBlue wrote:
Jon Ralph reporting that North have offered Zac Fisher a FIVE year deal which will take over 2 years with us


But he's got a contract.

Contracts are not the be all to end all. Ask Ratten. Ask Grundy. Ask James Stewart who still has a year to run on his contract and was delisted yesterday, before the last round of this season.

The Elliot period is behind us, and we have embraced the new world, and the value of the draft, and, improving our list; contract or no contract.

Its not ludicrous to pay out contracts in this day and age: re LOB.

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2023
PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2023 12:14 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko

Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:03 am
Posts: 24686
Location: Bondi Beach
FarmerBlue wrote:
Jon Ralph reporting ...

We could trade for first round pick in next years mid seasond draft


We could, and that is nothing new. There's a lot we can do.

The only issue we have doing that is if we don't receive good compensation for doing so.

Furthermore, with live trades, we can wait till the last minute of next year's draft, when its our turn to match the bid for Campo, and trade the pick then and get better value next year, without having to "waste" it on matching the bid.

Austin and his team are looking at all the obvious options we do on TC, and many many more we would never even hear about.

There's plenty of ways to skin this cat.

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2023
PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2023 12:24 pm 
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Harry Vallence

Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2021 11:10 am
Posts: 1495
bondiblue wrote:
FarmerBlue wrote:
Jon Ralph reporting that North have offered Zac Fisher a FIVE year deal which will take over 2 years with us


But he's got a contract.

Contracts are not the be all to end all. Ask Ratten. Ask Grundy. Ask James Stewart who still has a year to run on his contract and was delisted yesterday, before the last round of this season.

The Elliot period is behind us, and we have embraced the new world, and the value of the draft, and, improving our list; contract or no contract.



Not sure your point. Why do we have to pay out anything?


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