IF IT WERE THE LIST, why oh why oh why has there been so much outrage, anger, frustration, vitriol, media scrutiny, booing, social media meltdowns, 100s of pages on TC, BF, FB etc etc etc etc etc?

After all, IF IT WERE THE LIST, why oh why oh why we would we not just accept losses to Adel (they were playing at home), StK (Lyon has them playing great footy) and Bris (they're a top 4 side) blah f*** blah

The reason IT IS NOT THE LIST is because all the things mentioned above are indicators that the team is UNDERPERFORMING against expectations
Whose job is it to get players to perform (at the very least) to expectation?????????????????????
And whose job is it to intervene/instruct/ameliorate the situation when players are underperforming????????????????

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If I want your opinion, I'll give it to you!

List
Voss can’t keep playing Cripps and Saad in their roles
Might get away with it against the Dogs who are of a similar standard to us but not against the better teams.
Our ball movement is terrible due to players who don’t kick it well enough and run hard enough both ways
Voss is trying to get the players to play more attacking footy but it comes unstuck because under pressure most of the players are no good and turn it over
If our mids get beaten they get exposed because they are poor runners . Most of them are ball hunters. Walsh and Cerra are the only good runners
Saad is the only bloke who is penetrating kick
Teams now target him and it’s game over
Where too easy to play against
Put simply not good enough
Poor list management
Where eight years into a rebuild Bondi

Do you look at the other teams?

Poor coaching, selection, gameplan, tweaking, creativity, lack of consequences
COACHING IS THE BIGGEST PROBLEM

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If I want your opinion, I'll give it to you!

Voss needs to change things
That’s obvious

St Kilda? No King?
Better list than ours? Get your head out of your backside.
If both teams play to their capability, we're significantly better equipped.
And no, it doesn't matter how many times you trot out your player "figures", they're still the same made up shit they were every other time. Repetition doesn't equal validation.

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Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.

Ok Keogh...well sometimes the answer is staring right at us...it's "obvious"

BTW...Am I saying our list is a top 4 list? NO

Am I saying our list is a top 6-8 list? YES

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If I want your opinion, I'll give it to you!

StKilda won 11 last year
We won 12
And this year
Butler and Higgins crap on our small forwards
Marshall craps all over what we can dish up in the ruck
Is Seb Ross better than George Hewett
Phiilipou and Owens are young guns
Sinclair has more tricks in his arsenal than Saad
Wilkie is one of the best defenders going around
Steele is a terrific leader

You’ve got no idea
Obviously Lyon has adopted his stingy game plan which history shows works temporarily before the wheels fall off
So granted their game plan is better than ours at the moment
But our list is not superior to theirs
Our top end is better but after the best ten it drops away significantly.
Due to horrendous recruiting and trades

Top 6 to 8
Well with round 9 upon us we play the dogs who are similar to us in performance

Yeah, they've got a great list when you're putting up Seb Ross as their leading midfielder.
He is line ball this season with George Hewitt and George is widely accepted as being out of form. Cripps, Walsh and Cerra shit all over Seb Ross. No football club whatsoever would take him over any of our mids.
As for Wilkie, yeah I saw him when Charlie embarrassed him. And Jack Steele? He's horribly out of form so you're pulling the wrong rein there.

You're like clock work. You and a couple of your fellow doom dwelling consort who appear after a couple of losses and bag the shit out of the club.
You must all sit at home hanging out for losses to afford you the opportunity to spew out your negativity. And when other posters disagree, it's always "you've got no idea" or "do you watch football" or "you don't watch the other teams".

No team has the perfect list. Every team has battlers and journeymen. So don't give me the crap about our list dropping away significantly. Every teams does! Trotting out your made up figures about players salaries to justify your slagging of them and the club is boring. It's guess work, it's not factual and it's pathetic.
I hate losing as much as the next person but I don't turn on the club at every opportunity. I understand it's a long season and premierships are not won in April or May.

Under Voss we have shown an ability to win games off the back of stoppages dominance, off back half offence and off turnover. We've focussed on our deficiencies to the detriment of consistency because we have to learn win using varying methods. We have midfield dominance (the past month has seen a return to our stoppage strength), we have 2 of the best KP forwards in the game and our backline has been generally very good for 18 months.
Our method has been OK other than last week. The speed of ball movement is our last challenge. We play the right areas of the ground, we take the appropriate amount of corridor risk and we have the list to take the next step IMHO. The next step is tempo of ball movement. We take too long to move the ball and we allow the opposition too much time to zone ahead of the ball. So we cant utilise the 20m kicks that break zones and fatigue the opposition. But I have faith it will come. We have the talent to do it. Our coaches need to train it and implement it.

So come back and have a sook if we miss finals. There's been 8 rounds of footy. Have concerns but burning the club down at this point of time is foolish.

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Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.

Disagree with pretty much everything you have written there
You think the list is better than what I think
We agree to disagree

You might be right, as far as the quality of the list, but not convinced that the quality of the list is necessarily the priority here either.

If you've got a well drilled team that play to a sensible and flexible tempo of footy, the list is good enough to challenge. We've had better lists but with bigger issues in discipline and gameplans.

You can have the All Australian team out there but if they're taking the better part of two minutes to bite off a sideways 20m pass and then up the line to a contest out of habit, they're not beating shit.

We are a good contest possession team
Not very good when the ball is in space whether we have it the oppose has it or when it’s in dispute

Are you of the belief that the only way to navigate through a modern defence is to move the ball quickly, before they have time to set up?

I'm not arguing one way or another, but I've been contemplating whether slower, methodical movement might still work with good disposal and the right structures.

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O say does that star spangled banner yet wave.

I think its the sum of all parts.

Slower methodical movement can still work, but when will always fall down when our entries inside 50 are so inanely predictable. In recent years, teams like Geelong and Hawthorn have been able to make it work because you've got 6 to 8 blokes who are a genuine threat to take a shot on goal working inside forward 50, so you can chip it around, take your time and look for the best option.

Aside from the obvious issue of over reliance on Harry and Charlie, the majority of guys who could fill that gap are terrible shots on goal, or rarely spend enough time in that system to work out what their role is - I reckon Kennedy is a pretty reliable set shot, but he bounces around from forward/mid to mid/forward to bewilderingly in a back pocket to sub/mid pinch hitter, Martin is a great grab for his size and generally an OK set shot too. Can't get him on the park enough to work him into the system. Owies was becoming that guy before the hamstring tear. Silvagni is too poor a kick to consider in that context.

I'd be curious to see what the data says about how often we take shots from outside 50 with the ball in play, it'd be considerably less than most teams, and it allows teams to confidently push the spare back to fill a hole in front of Charlie or H instead. I'd rather we become unpredictable in that respect, and have a few games with an inaccurate scoreline, because at the very least you're forcing the opposition coach to reconsider their back half structures in the process.

That's my take at the moment. 8 wins from the last 20 games says a lot

With the list we now have available I believe we should be playing a lot better

IMO there is NO way that St Kilda have a better list than us. The Pies if better aren't by much especially when you rate the best 25

I just look at the way we play and our results and we aren't getting close to the best out of our players. Even watching the Reserves our game style is stagnant and easy to stop

I agree.

Our midfield is predominantly ball hunters
Walsh and Cerra are good runners both offensively and defensively but aren’t penetrating kicks
It seems to me that when we lose possession between the arcs the opposition move it easier than when we win possession
I would love to see Durdin play minutes in the middle
He has pace off the mark
Opposition teams sit on Saad because he is the only player who can penetrate with his kicking from defense
So play him further up the ground

In 2003 the annual turnover for the AFL was 171 million. There were 4 players earning 1 million a year . Cap was lower and list were larger.
In 2023 the expected turnover is going to be approximately 800 million plus and there is currently only 7 players earning over a million.

Someone is making a lot of money and it certainly isn't the players.
If you were an elite athlete like most AFL players are you would be looking elsewhere as there are to many hangers-ons in the AFL restricting what you can earn.

Sent from my SM-F926B using Tapatalk

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If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

The other aspect to consider here is the impact of moving McKay further up the ground to be that Get Out Of Jail mark down the line from a kick out.

The pros to it are that we've improved significantly in our ball movement out of defence so far as not turning the ball over as much, and teams not having repeat entries inside 50 against us. We look like we have a purpose, players understand the structure, and its largely executed well to the point of McKay getting the footy in that position, in that context - we execute it better than Port do with Dixon, Collingwood did with Cloke, perhaps not as well as Brisbane did with McStay. It's also forced Harry to work hard in the off-season and his GPS numbers are frightening for a bloke his size.

The issue is that stagnant ball movement that occurs from it, while we wait for McKay to gut run back to the forward 50 and provide another option. Or we bomb it to a Charlie 3 on 1. Or Harry does get on the end of it, and we then have to expect him to hit a set shot reliably after making two huge sprints up the wing and back.

Ideally, this isn't Harry's problem to solve, and Pittonet learns to become that GOOJ mark that Gawn has developed into instead. It sure isn't TDK if he refuses to play a contest from anywhere but two deep. I think it should be a priority from a list management perspective to find an Earl Spalding who can do the grunt work up the ground, and allow us to utilize the advantage of Harry and Charlie better.