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PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2023 7:38 pm 
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Craig Bradley

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:lol: :lol:

Jesus… get ahold of yourself.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2023 8:03 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko

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Quote:
deano35 wrote:
So the master Voss said on Kemps return that his form was so good that regardless of them not having a spot for him he just had to be picked because he was knocking the door down with his form in the 2's.
Paddy Dow says 'Hold my beer'


This part is good value. Hilarious.

Quote:
The same Master Voss who said that Dow can't get a game because we have too many Mids.
Pick and choosing already in his 2nd year that's a great culture he's building.


This bit, nah. Lets get real. Vossy couldnt fit in Kennedy. We have too many mids.
SOS drafted umpteen mids. We still find new ones from Draft Pick 1, and another importa from Fremantle: Cerra.


Quote:
Welcome to Carlton where selection integrity doesn't exist unless of course master Voss decides to change his views on certain players when it suits.


My understanding from the tone and yeah my 'vibe' Vossy felt he was forced to name Kennedy as a sub, despite being an important part of the playing group: guessing, pending need, or maybe by plan.

Dow better get use to it with Boyd, Cottrell, Owies and Martin come back in. He's got to get over Kennedy. Lucky Cuningham doesnt figure in the equation.

I can't see us missing Finals this year, despite early injury....unless injury continues to curse Carlton. I dont want to believe that.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2023 8:18 pm 
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Rod McGregor

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What club has he been involved with as a coach and assistant coach that has had real success the only one would be port to some degree
I really think we got this one wrong like the last 4 or 5 coaches we have had


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2023 8:38 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko

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Keithy wrote:
What club has he been involved with as a coach and assistant coach that has had real success the only one would be port to some degree
I really think we got this one wrong like the last 4 or 5 coaches we have had


Don't worry about it so much Keithy. That's footy.
All teams have to be under the cap. We dont have many caps available like other clubs, with all the injuries.
Believe it or not, the return of players from the injured list will hold us in good stead.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2023 10:45 pm 
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Rod Ashman

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Paddycripps wrote:
Nathan Buckley thinks our turnover game hasn't changed, our defense is a little better, and we aren't scoring as much from stoppages. He thinks we are about where he had us going into the season, missing out on the 8. So based off that, he thought we would tread water, which translated means not improve. Seems about right.


I thought we would sneak into the eight

I don’t think we will now

Too many other teams seem to have improved

Early in the season so a fair bit to play out


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2023 11:32 pm 
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Ken Hunter
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deano35 wrote:
So the master Voss said on Kemps return that his form was so good that regardless of them not having a spot for him he just had to be picked because he was knocking the door down with his form in the 2's.
Paddy Dow says 'Hold my beer'
The same Master Voss who said that Dow can't get a game because we have too many Mids.
Pick and choosing already in his 2nd year that's a great culture he's building.
Welcome to Carlton where selection integrity doesn't exist unless of course master Voss decides to change his views on certain players when it suits.


:thumbsup:


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2023 11:36 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko
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Has Dow been good?

I mean, has anyone watched him? I'm sure there's some at the club that have... I haven't...

I reckon he's lucky to be playing footy on an AFL list...

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 29, 2023 1:54 am 
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Craig Bradley

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bluehammer wrote:
Has Dow been good?

I mean, has anyone watched him? I'm sure there's some at the club that have... I haven't...

I reckon he's lucky to be playing footy on an AFL list...

Good in the twos.

Gibbo won a pair of league BnFs… just saying.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 29, 2023 4:25 am 
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Rod Ashman
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Sidefx wrote:
bondiblue wrote:
Sidefx wrote:
CK95 wrote:
It was yep. But you could apply it to us because we've got a bit in common with them at the moment

I don't disagree.
I think the game plan we have implemented over the summer required certain players to be able to utilise their skills to move the ball cleanly out of defence.
Unfortunately those players are injured and we are now fielding a very young inexperienced team.
I guess Voss and Co only have a couple of options.
1. Try and work out a way forward with the plan and our injury list - which I think they have been.
2. Revert back to last years game plan and risk a few beltings along the way until our injured players return - if we do that I just hope the herd are ready for it.
It seems to be a damned if you do and a damned if you don't scenario.

Our issues this season, the same as last season are coming back to bite us from the obscure drafting option taken last year.
When we were screaming out for another mature ruck, 1-2 quick & or skilful mature aged inside mids and possibly a small forward with some X-factor, instead we went heavy on the wings. And although they needed some addressing, either Acres or Hollands would've been enough (and I'm not saying I'm not happy with them).
Therefore we didn't fix the more important issue, covering and removing the annually injured players.
I just hope this year we start to move on the more injury prone players (if possible) out of the club and keep the more durable ones like your LOB's, Dow, Fisher, Plowman etc as depth players for a while longer until that mid tier is built up to support the top tier injuries. Though it's not ideal and the herd will hate hearing it, at least those players can get on the park and stay on that park and if the team as a whole needs less of them (especially at once) then if/when required they can fit into a stronger system to cover players and not be so exposed. Fit average players are better than always injured stars IMO.
And although I don't like looking backwards an example is getting rid of Setterfield and Stocker (although there were reasons) instead of say Philp, Cunningham or Marchbank. That hurts the list depth, a lot.

So for me going forward the list management really needs to be focused on mature aged durable footballers that can kick a footy if we want to play a tempo style game like we are trying to.


Acres cost us pick 49 and we have him on a wing for next 3 years
Hollands cost us pick 11 on a wing for the next 10 years

I dont think those selections stopped us trading for a ruckman
I'm sure we didnt need any more inside mids.
I think some outside speed to add to the mids waxing with Cerra, and a HF is all we really needed if Martin couldn't be relied on is what we could've added.

I'm glad to see Pitto lasted 84% of game last week.

Acres cost us 2023 3rd and the way we are going it might be better than #49, hopefully not though.
Not that we had a chance but Grundy went for #27
Rory Lobb went for #30
Lloyd Meek was a player swap.

As for inside mids, in 2022 we ranked #10 for Centre Clearances and #11 for total clearances and finished up 9th.
Not sure what else says we needed more speed in the middle, aside from watching us get ripped a new one on the rebound.
* Currently we only have Crippa #7 Centre Clearances next is Cerra #36 and Crippa #2 for total clearances and next is Cerra #46.
That's a massive hole in inside mid top end talent, no wonder teams can shut us out so easily.
And if we needed outside speed why did we bring in two wings that aren't overly quick.

We could've traded pick #11 for a pretty decent mature mid TBH.
Taranto #12
Tanner Bruhn #18
Jacob Hopper #31
or even Josh Dunkley or Tom Mitchell for experience.
Not sure if we had a chance with any, but one of those (except Tanner) in the middle providing experience and depth would've been pretty good.

Either way, it's only RD 6 and both Kennedy and Hewett have had a stint on the side lines already and that is the biggest issue we will face all season, as we did last season.
Don't get me wrong, I like all 4 of our players but the holes that needed to be filled and still need to be filled are either replacing injury prone players or creating depth to cover them at a better than VFL level (mid tier).
So for me it doesn't matter if Acres plays for 3 years and Hollands 10, if we aren't fixing our injury and depth issues in the other key positions they may also never see a flag at the club.
We need durability and depth, not 6 players (3 in the one draft) that can play wing role, all of whom are not that quick (except maybe Cottrell).

And it's great Pitto played 84%, but he is also another risk on top of all the other risks we have on our list ATM.
Anyway this is just my opinion carried over from last season, unfortunately I have seen no other evidence to change it yet.
We have a player in the seconds that is good at clearances. He has speed and can kick goals too.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 29, 2023 10:40 am 
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Alex Jesaulenko
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malbi wrote:
Sidefx wrote:
bondiblue wrote:
Sidefx wrote:
CK95 wrote:
It was yep. But you could apply it to us because we've got a bit in common with them at the moment

I don't disagree.
I think the game plan we have implemented over the summer required certain players to be able to utilise their skills to move the ball cleanly out of defence.
Unfortunately those players are injured and we are now fielding a very young inexperienced team.
I guess Voss and Co only have a couple of options.
1. Try and work out a way forward with the plan and our injury list - which I think they have been.
2. Revert back to last years game plan and risk a few beltings along the way until our injured players return - if we do that I just hope the herd are ready for it.
It seems to be a damned if you do and a damned if you don't scenario.

Our issues this season, the same as last season are coming back to bite us from the obscure drafting option taken last year.
When we were screaming out for another mature ruck, 1-2 quick & or skilful mature aged inside mids and possibly a small forward with some X-factor, instead we went heavy on the wings. And although they needed some addressing, either Acres or Hollands would've been enough (and I'm not saying I'm not happy with them).
Therefore we didn't fix the more important issue, covering and removing the annually injured players.
I just hope this year we start to move on the more injury prone players (if possible) out of the club and keep the more durable ones like your LOB's, Dow, Fisher, Plowman etc as depth players for a while longer until that mid tier is built up to support the top tier injuries. Though it's not ideal and the herd will hate hearing it, at least those players can get on the park and stay on that park and if the team as a whole needs less of them (especially at once) then if/when required they can fit into a stronger system to cover players and not be so exposed. Fit average players are better than always injured stars IMO.
And although I don't like looking backwards an example is getting rid of Setterfield and Stocker (although there were reasons) instead of say Philp, Cunningham or Marchbank. That hurts the list depth, a lot.

So for me going forward the list management really needs to be focused on mature aged durable footballers that can kick a footy if we want to play a tempo style game like we are trying to.


Acres cost us pick 49 and we have him on a wing for next 3 years
Hollands cost us pick 11 on a wing for the next 10 years

I dont think those selections stopped us trading for a ruckman
I'm sure we didnt need any more inside mids.
I think some outside speed to add to the mids waxing with Cerra, and a HF is all we really needed if Martin couldn't be relied on is what we could've added.

I'm glad to see Pitto lasted 84% of game last week.

Acres cost us 2023 3rd and the way we are going it might be better than #49, hopefully not though.
Not that we had a chance but Grundy went for #27
Rory Lobb went for #30
Lloyd Meek was a player swap.

As for inside mids, in 2022 we ranked #10 for Centre Clearances and #11 for total clearances and finished up 9th.
Not sure what else says we needed more speed in the middle, aside from watching us get ripped a new one on the rebound.
* Currently we only have Crippa #7 Centre Clearances next is Cerra #36 and Crippa #2 for total clearances and next is Cerra #46.
That's a massive hole in inside mid top end talent, no wonder teams can shut us out so easily.
And if we needed outside speed why did we bring in two wings that aren't overly quick.

We could've traded pick #11 for a pretty decent mature mid TBH.
Taranto #12
Tanner Bruhn #18
Jacob Hopper #31
or even Josh Dunkley or Tom Mitchell for experience.
Not sure if we had a chance with any, but one of those (except Tanner) in the middle providing experience and depth would've been pretty good.

Either way, it's only RD 6 and both Kennedy and Hewett have had a stint on the side lines already and that is the biggest issue we will face all season, as we did last season.
Don't get me wrong, I like all 4 of our players but the holes that needed to be filled and still need to be filled are either replacing injury prone players or creating depth to cover them at a better than VFL level (mid tier).
So for me it doesn't matter if Acres plays for 3 years and Hollands 10, if we aren't fixing our injury and depth issues in the other key positions they may also never see a flag at the club.
We need durability and depth, not 6 players (3 in the one draft) that can play wing role, all of whom are not that quick (except maybe Cottrell).

And it's great Pitto played 84%, but he is also another risk on top of all the other risks we have on our list ATM.
Anyway this is just my opinion carried over from last season, unfortunately I have seen no other evidence to change it yet.
We have a player in the seconds that is good at clearances. He has speed and can kick goals too.

Sent from my SM-G970F using Tapatalk
I wonder how he'd go at AFL level? He sounds amazing... We have tried him, right?

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 29, 2023 11:30 am 
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Ken Hunter

Joined: Thu May 11, 2006 6:11 pm
Posts: 14938
WOW wrote:
Paddycripps wrote:
Nathan Buckley thinks our turnover game hasn't changed, our defense is a little better, and we aren't scoring as much from stoppages. He thinks we are about where he had us going into the season, missing out on the 8. So based off that, he thought we would tread water, which translated means not improve. Seems about right.


I thought we would sneak into the eight

I don’t think we will now

Too many other teams seem to have improved

Early in the season so a fair bit to play out

Agree with this.
Other teams have improved and gone past us.
Pretty depressing that after so many crap years and a constant change of coaches we still may not have got it right.
While I am no expert but wouldn't moving the ball quicker stop our forward 50 being so congested?
It is pretty frustrating watching us chip the ball sideways and backwards while the opposition is flooding our forward line. If the ball is turned over then we cannot get back quickly enough to stop them scoring.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 29, 2023 12:08 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick

Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2005 9:58 pm
Posts: 4299
They've improved largely from a tactical/ball movement viewpoint. I know that's stating the bleedin' obvious.
If our coaching group aren't pig headed and realise that and change it up, I think we are better than a fair few of the sides that we perceive have gone past us.
Question is will they change it up?
As others have stated, really hoping the inclusion of Doc and Saad (and Boyd in the next week or so) will help rectify that.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 29, 2023 2:15 pm 
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John Nicholls
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kezza wrote:
WOW wrote:
Paddycripps wrote:
Nathan Buckley thinks our turnover game hasn't changed, our defense is a little better, and we aren't scoring as much from stoppages. He thinks we are about where he had us going into the season, missing out on the 8. So based off that, he thought we would tread water, which translated means not improve. Seems about right.


I thought we would sneak into the eight

I don’t think we will now

Too many other teams seem to have improved

Early in the season so a fair bit to play out

Agree with this.
Other teams have improved and gone past us.
Pretty depressing that after so many crap years and a constant change of coaches we still may not have got it right.
While I am no expert but wouldn't moving the ball quicker stop our forward 50 being so congested?
It is pretty frustrating watching us chip the ball sideways and backwards while the opposition is flooding our forward line. If the ball is turned over then we cannot get back quickly enough to stop them scoring.


Every team chips sideways to "build the ball up". It's part of the modern game and the trigger for it is when the oppositions defence is set up well behind the ball. Moving sideways and backwards spreads their middle of field defence a bit more and opens the ground up for a deeper entry, ultimately (deeper F50 entries are easier to defend - the ground is smaller and you can press up to lock the ball in more easily).

Where it's breaking down is we don't have the foot skills to hit targets, nor do we have the leg speed to run and carry, to get those deeper entries. What ends up happening is the long bomb gets triggered too far out from home, with a contest usually around half back - somewhere around the arc and the centre square. It's a dangerous part of the ground - if we don't mark or get a stoppage, the opponent runs it out with ease and scores out the back.

I think Voss would love to see us run and gun, but he knows we're not equipped to A) score heavily, consistently nor B) defend if we do turn it over (and lord knows, we turn the pill over more often than the Olinda Ferny Creek special team).

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 29, 2023 4:09 pm 
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Rod Ashman

Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2011 10:17 pm
Posts: 2033
robertbb wrote:
kezza wrote:
WOW wrote:
Paddycripps wrote:
Nathan Buckley thinks our turnover game hasn't changed, our defense is a little better, and we aren't scoring as much from stoppages. He thinks we are about where he had us going into the season, missing out on the 8. So based off that, he thought we would tread water, which translated means not improve. Seems about right.


I thought we would sneak into the eight

I don’t think we will now

Too many other teams seem to have improved

Early in the season so a fair bit to play out

Agree with this.
Other teams have improved and gone past us.
Pretty depressing that after so many crap years and a constant change of coaches we still may not have got it right.
While I am no expert but wouldn't moving the ball quicker stop our forward 50 being so congested?
It is pretty frustrating watching us chip the ball sideways and backwards while the opposition is flooding our forward line. If the ball is turned over then we cannot get back quickly enough to stop them scoring.


Every team chips sideways to "build the ball up". It's part of the modern game and the trigger for it is when the oppositions defence is set up well behind the ball. Moving sideways and backwards spreads their middle of field defence a bit more and opens the ground up for a deeper entry, ultimately (deeper F50 entries are easier to defend - the ground is smaller and you can press up to lock the ball in more easily).

Where it's breaking down is we don't have the foot skills to hit targets, nor do we have the leg speed to run and carry, to get those deeper entries. What ends up happening is the long bomb gets triggered too far out from home, with a contest usually around half back - somewhere around the arc and the centre square. It's a dangerous part of the ground - if we don't mark or get a stoppage, the opponent runs it out with ease and scores out the back.

I think Voss would love to see us run and gun, but he knows we're not equipped to A) score heavily, consistently nor B) defend if we do turn it over (and lord knows, we turn the pill over more often than the Olinda Ferny Creek special team).


We kick sideways and backwards too often

Lacks purpose. It’s safe footy.

Agree, lack of kicking skills is a huge issue when trying to spread the play by kicking sideways and backwards with speed and more risk. It’s probably the reason why we play safe footy. Lack of belief amongst a number of players.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 29, 2023 4:31 pm 
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Rod Ashman

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I wonder whether it’s more than kicking - footy IQ. Knowing when to pull the trigger, when to hold back; vision to see things unfolding before they happen (leading, kicking to a lead or to advantage).
And those dinky little handpasses that don’t quite hit the chest but fall short or cause the receiving player to have to stop or take a step back and stuffing up momentum. Does my head in!


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 29, 2023 4:50 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko
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Joined: Sat May 23, 2009 8:30 pm
Posts: 23911
robertbb wrote:
kezza wrote:
WOW wrote:
Paddycripps wrote:
Nathan Buckley thinks our turnover game hasn't changed, our defense is a little better, and we aren't scoring as much from stoppages. He thinks we are about where he had us going into the season, missing out on the 8. So based off that, he thought we would tread water, which translated means not improve. Seems about right.


I thought we would sneak into the eight

I don’t think we will now

Too many other teams seem to have improved

Early in the season so a fair bit to play out

Agree with this.
Other teams have improved and gone past us.
Pretty depressing that after so many crap years and a constant change of coaches we still may not have got it right.
While I am no expert but wouldn't moving the ball quicker stop our forward 50 being so congested?
It is pretty frustrating watching us chip the ball sideways and backwards while the opposition is flooding our forward line. If the ball is turned over then we cannot get back quickly enough to stop them scoring.


Every team chips sideways to "build the ball up". It's part of the modern game and the trigger for it is when the oppositions defence is set up well behind the ball. Moving sideways and backwards spreads their middle of field defence a bit more and opens the ground up for a deeper entry, ultimately (deeper F50 entries are easier to defend - the ground is smaller and you can press up to lock the ball in more easily).

Where it's breaking down is we don't have the foot skills to hit targets, nor do we have the leg speed to run and carry, to get those deeper entries. What ends up happening is the long bomb gets triggered too far out from home, with a contest usually around half back - somewhere around the arc and the centre square. It's a dangerous part of the ground - if we don't mark or get a stoppage, the opponent runs it out with ease and scores out the back.

I think Voss would love to see us run and gun, but he knows we're not equipped to A) score heavily, consistently nor B) defend if we do turn it over (and lord knows, we turn the pill over more often than the Olinda Ferny Creek special team).


We are not equipped to score heavily?
Really???
We have two of the most envied forwards in the league.
Sorry. I don't buy your summation. I don't think Voss likes to run and gun.
We have as much overall talent as st kilda or port or most...but Voss hasn't brought out the best in our players.
He's given some convoluted over worked plan that makes our boys miserable, lacks any dare or flair and is stultifying to watch.
I've never felt so depressed watching even when we barely won those earlier games.
You can make excuses all you like but unless Vossy wakes up and listens to some pretty good feedback...across the media..never mind supporters, we are going nowhere. It's miserable overworked footy.
Hoping for change tonite.
Voss has got this horribly wrong. ( imho).

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 29, 2023 5:16 pm 
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Robert Walls

Joined: Tue Oct 17, 2006 11:01 pm
Posts: 3561
deano35 wrote:
So the master Voss said on Kemps return that his form was so good that regardless of them not having a spot for him he just had to be picked because he was knocking the door down with his form in the 2's.
Paddy Dow says 'Hold my beer'
The same Master Voss who said that Dow can't get a game because we have too many Mids.
Pick and choosing already in his 2nd year that's a great culture he's building.
Welcome to Carlton where selection integrity doesn't exist unless of course master Voss decides to change his views on certain players when it suits.


100%
Locker rooms I'm sure are not always harmonious. I get that
But...it "appears" Voss has anti-Dow agenda. Now, that's his prerogative
However...Dow no doubt has team-mates who may end up being life-long friends, and maybe team mates who he's no that close to but who have a bit of a soft-spot for his omission
Do you not reckon that locker room can start getting more divisive than usual with all the chatter, gossip, anger and probably bagging out of the coaches?

IN MY VERY HUMBLE OPINION...I reckon it would!!!!
There's your anti-culture right there

But hey, the patsy Ash Hansen tries to talk about mids and team balance...WAFJ

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 29, 2023 5:18 pm 
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Ken Hunter
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I'd be surprised if the Carlton locker room is as obsessed with Paddy Dow as this joint.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 29, 2023 5:19 pm 
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Robert Walls

Joined: Tue Oct 17, 2006 11:01 pm
Posts: 3561
Crusader wrote:
bluehammer wrote:
Has Dow been good?

I mean, has anyone watched him? I'm sure there's some at the club that have... I haven't...

I reckon he's lucky to be playing footy on an AFL list...

Good in the twos.

Gibbo won a pair of league BnFs… just saying.



The last time I checked, the 2s were the level below AFL and the only league we can use to promote or demote

Unless there's a 1.5s league we don't know about

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 29, 2023 5:22 pm 
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Robert Walls

Joined: Tue Oct 17, 2006 11:01 pm
Posts: 3561
bluehammer wrote:
Has Dow been good?

I mean, has anyone watched him? I'm sure there's some at the club that have... I haven't...

I reckon he's lucky to be playing footy on an AFL list...


Based on that comparison, Honey would be lucky to play for the Papua NewGuinea thirds, such was his form in the VFL before being promoted...#igetitlike4lke

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