Setterfield is no good and don't forget Martin who is now lazy, apparently (yet to substantiate that claim so don't ask me). Keogh is tiresomely negative at the best of times, but with Setters you can see how it has become a (possibly unintentional) agenda. The kid plays four excellent games in a row with high tackle counts and decent possession numbers, finishing top 5 in our MVP vote each week and all Keogh gives us is a begrudging acknowledgement that he is improving a bit. Then when he finally has a quiet game, Keogh comes bounding out of the woodwork saying, told you so, he's useless.

I went to school with a kid named Keogh, Trevor Keogh. A top kid, not at all negative. Hmm.
A pretty good footballer too. Went down to Melbourne to play with Carlton. Did pretty well.

As I said the Trevor Keogh I knew wasn't a glass half empty negative sort of kid. That's the Keogh I remember.

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The problem with Socialism is, you eventually run out of other people's money.

I can argue that there are many posters on this site who go the early crow on how good a player is after one good game
McGovern against the Saints last year
O’Brien against Freo last year

It works both ways.

Specifically what sort of player is Setterfield because he is talked up by his team mates and the club as a bit of a gun.
Last year he played mainly wing with some cameos up forward.
This year he has played midfield
There has been improvement.
But he is not quick. His stoppage work is ordinary compared to the better mids.
He is second to the ball too much in these situations and that’s why he is high in tackles. Having a high tackle count can be a bit misleading when you simply tackle a guy at a stoppage who gets the ball first
He does have good hands and vision but needs to get his hands more dirty because he is ineffective on the outside compared to other quality mids
The concern for me is Treloar Sidebottom De Goey(who pinch hits in the middle) Beames and Sier were all out and Elliott ( who has played forward all year) and Daicos were far more effective in the middle

Our midfield was crap.
Which brings me to Martin.
Martin is a lazy footballer. He was at GC. He looks a million dollars with ball in hand but picks and chooses when to go hard. With Collingwoods midfield down in personnel Martin should have been in there racking them up. He was mister invisible. He has been like that since he entered the system.
We shouldn’t be surprised. His work rate compared to the better mids is crap.

I want to experience number 17 as much as any Carlton supporter but it won’t happen when you give guys like Plowman 3 year contracts or Trott out Murphy for another year.
Why recruit Betts? How does improve the team long term.

It’s been 25 years gentlemen.
20 years since we played in one
Never made a Preliminary Final in 20 years
4 years of Final appearances although I personally don’t count 2013.You can if you want.
Too many spoons

Why?
Our we on the right path now?
That’s the question that is crucial.
Some of the trades contracts and recruiting and inclusions makes me feel that the answer is no.

I follow footy and support Carlton but keep tabs on what the other teams do and how they go about it.

Remember 2012
Overrate the list at your peril

We will likely end up around 10-14 give or take with a team featuring old stagers Simpson, Murphy, Casboult, Curnow, Betts. Time to play more kids in lieu of the old stagers. I'd accept taking a step back in 2021 if it means fast tracking the kids. It seems pointless and counterproductive to keep persisting with too many old players.

The points made re Martin are interesting. He looks great with the ball but his goal kicking is poor. It is so hard to see the other elements of his game on television. How hard does he work? His defensive work? His tacking? How much time is he spending in the mid field? Is he lazy? What were the issues at Gold Coast? To be honest I am not sold on him as a quality player yet, despite the media hype.

Understand what you're saying but if you go off coaches votes he is in the top 5 Carlton players in 2020

I think the key question is are we a better side than last year? Who's in and who's out becomes irrelevant if the answer is yes.

We all want to see the kids play but are they ready match fit ? One question if we finish with a pick 6 to 9 and there is a kid in draft that ticks all boxes (speed,strong ) do we go to the draft OR we sell farm and chase papley .What are people thoughts?

Suspect the Papley boat may have left without us. Would be 2 years of first rounders or our first rounder and a decent player - eg Marchbank - to get him now. And a fair whack of cap space of course. Zac Williams would come without the price in picks but a bit salary cap hit. Rory Atkins similar. Polec at North is an interesting case but whilst he gives good run offensively he is as one-way as they get and that is one type we have in plentiful supply already.

Think we should be looking at these four with a view to getting one perhaps two into the club. Of course there will be other suitors to compete with as well. Papley is silk but comes at a high price in draft picks/player but this might be the year to trade out a high pick given the lack of exposed form and uncertainty over the Victorian lads especially.

Agree that Papley will cost a lot. Probably too much. Happy to put our first rounder on the table and see what offers we get, but would be reluctant to trade 2 first rounders.

i agree 2 first rounders is too much to pay ,truthfully i hope he stays at swanetts and we move on with my no 1 choice ZAC

Zac is my number 1 choice too so hope we get him. We seem to have room in the cap too as we've been paying unders and been banking some so as BV said, be good if we could get a 2nd FA such as Viney too.
He could help ease the heavy lifting Crippa has been doing and Zac will add some outside run and class.

Zac Williams is a free agent, so no brainer if he wants to come and fills a need.
If we are to trade our first round pick - please let it be for a quality, young gun midfielder.

We just need to make Williams happen. He solves our midfield or rebound defender problem.

The forward line will sort itself out when everyone is fit. Papley isn’t needed.

A few good ball winners, including a younger Macrae.

Our first choice forward group for 2021 is likely to be:

Casboult, McKay, Charlie, Jack, McGovern and the opportunist small - if not Eddie, then Fisher or Cunningham.

Kemp looks like a competitive mid with a mind for scoring, so mind find himself in a wing/HFF role for early development - the same role that Martin is playing for us, along with Newnes & Cunningham when picked.

There are some good role players forward of centre, but they won’t count for much if one of those forwards can’t threaten to kick a bag. Charlie was by far the most dynamic, but is no certainty to return with the same bag of tricks. Harry has the physical tools, but his only reliable kick is that left foot around the body.

So, as we summit Mt Whatsyourpoint, if there are moves afoot in the offseason, it should only be for midfield depth or a stud forward.

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"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter" - Winston Churchill.

5 forwards over 6'3" and 1 small? The ball would be walking out of our forward line with a bow on it.

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Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.

Doesn't matter what McGovern cost in the past. Its done.
McGovern or McAdams? No brainer really.
McGovern is still young, can play forward or back and will improve desire aggression competitiveness with fitness
Keeper and class

Next.

Martin: Doesn't matter what he cost us or not anymore. Its done.
He's a class player we have added to the list.
If you question his aggression, tackling, chasing and defensive efforts, you haven't been watching. He has set the benchmark for our club
If you're questioning his kicking to goals because he missed a couple and didnt take the shot Cripps called for, he kicked 4 goals against reigning Premiers
Keeper and class

Next.

Keep adding established class players and we will keep getting better as the kids mature.

Papley, if its 2 first rounders, well aren't we lucky if we can prize this competitive beast who can also run through the midfield?!
Williams, if its $1M upfront and pay overs, costing no picks, well aren't we lucky if we can prize this competitive beat for a midfield role, whilst Kemp & Co develop?!
Viney, if he's a possibility, it wouldn't cost us picks, and he would add depth aggression to the midfield group
Surprise Me, coz its about time we were surprised by a left field class player, and Austin must have one or two of these up his sleeve.

Writing off kids under 23yo is madness. They are depth and developing or may come on if we get the above.
Some of Dow, OBrien Stocker Kemp Cuningham and SPS will make it, or will be traded, but some will be success stories.
We do not have to delist any of the kids, but we need to get more class and aggression on board.

We have a war chest which we must spend this year or all that effort to bank $ over the last 3 years to get us to 105% is wasted. Wasted!
Martins front ended $1M is paid and that space is there this year.
Cripps has been paid front ended and payments in advance when we didn't land the big fish we were after (Kelly Shiel Coniglio)

Can you stop worrying about the cost and surprise us with 3 or 4 class players in the Trade period, because its possible. We are a destination club.

No more kids. There's no Rowell or Anderson types at pick 6 and over. Stop dreaming at the Draft. We got 2 first rounders from one pic last year. Enough kids.

Hey, we can still make the finals this year, but that's not important whilst gun players Kreuzer, Charlie, Marchbank, Newman are on the sidelines.

I would love to have won the Dees, Port, Pies and Saints games, but we didn't, we could've, but didn't. Next year. I like where we are at.

Every Carltonian has a fear of failure, and I'm sure no stone will be left unturned, and whilst the salary cap and total list numbers will decrease, we are on the rise, and we have a war chest we HAVE TO spend.

Go Blues.

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Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

Kemp may be eased into HF role if he's as good as we hear, and Gov can go back to play as a marking defender like his brother. We don't need more than 3 talls there.

We have options. If, in a couple years down the track Cripps Charlie and Kemp can rotate mid forward that wold be amazing.

McKay has to learn to ruck. Casboult has only another year, as insurance. Kreuzer same.
McKay will have to rotate with TDK in the ruck.

The young ones are still learning their trade circa 2020.

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Everyone looks good in Navy Blue