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PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 3:01 pm 
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Stephen Silvagni

Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:03 am
Posts: 25005
Location: Bondi Beach
camelboy wrote:
Crusader wrote:
From the Member Forum:

Quote:
Can the CEO explain the reporting lines associated with all members of the list management team prior to the departure of Stephen Silvagni and if it is common practice for staff below CEO level to address the board. - Andrew

Cain Liddle | Hi Andrew, the Club has established strong governance frameworks whereby sub-committees of the board are aligned to key strategic priorities across the business.
Specifically, with list management, the List Management sub-committee is chaired by Chris Judd (Director) and includes the Head of Football, GM List Management & Strategy, the CEO and the List Manager with the Coach and Head of High Performance also consulted across the season. As is the case with all sub-committees, key strategies and decisions are discussed and agreed upon as a sub-committee.  All players who were approached from other clubs as part of our 2019 list management strategy were discussed and rigorously debated over the course of many months at list management.

As per AFL guidelines, the CEO and Board are responsible for signing off on all TPP.
To further ensure good governance in list management, a number of conditions have been introduced by the Board that require the CEO, to seek board approval before some player contracts are agreed to by the club. These conditions relate to length of contracts, quantum of salaries and in some instances, age of players. This further restricts the ability of anyone, at any level, operating in silo and without the collective support of other key stakeholders.
In regards to making presentations to the board, we have various staff members present on a rotational basis to ensure accountability and open communication across the entire football club.

Firstly, if the List Management sub-committee deems the player to be physically and technically capable, and there is nothing else on the open market, age is irrelevant.

Secondly, who in their right mind would want to operate with such oversight? What the @#$%&! would the board - especially ours - know about the intricacies of the playing list?


Whether we like it or not, they'll have a far better understanding of our list than we do by the simple fact that they have first hand access to the footy dept, the coaches and knowledge of player contracts etc. Not to mention the players themselves.

I mean, clearly, we all seem to believe that we know better, with our limited access to facts and lack of experience in running a football club, haha. So I think it's reasonable, as a general comment, to accept the possibility that otherwise successfully functioning people from various business backgrounds could have a bit of a clue.

:beer:


I'm with you camelboy :beer:

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 7:42 pm 
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Harry Vallence

Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2007 11:51 am
Posts: 1291
Crusader wrote:
From the Member Forum:

Quote:
Can the CEO explain the reporting lines associated with all members of the list management team prior to the departure of Stephen Silvagni and if it is common practice for staff below CEO level to address the board. - Andrew

Cain Liddle | Hi Andrew, the Club has established strong governance frameworks whereby sub-committees of the board are aligned to key strategic priorities across the business.
Specifically, with list management, the List Management sub-committee is chaired by Chris Judd (Director) and includes the Head of Football, GM List Management & Strategy, the CEO and the List Manager with the Coach and Head of High Performance also consulted across the season. As is the case with all sub-committees, key strategies and decisions are discussed and agreed upon as a sub-committee.  All players who were approached from other clubs as part of our 2019 list management strategy were discussed and rigorously debated over the course of many months at list management.

As per AFL guidelines, the CEO and Board are responsible for signing off on all TPP.
To further ensure good governance in list management, a number of conditions have been introduced by the Board that require the CEO, to seek board approval before some player contracts are agreed to by the club. These conditions relate to length of contracts, quantum of salaries and in some instances, age of players. This further restricts the ability of anyone, at any level, operating in silo and without the collective support of other key stakeholders.
In regards to making presentations to the board, we have various staff members present on a rotational basis to ensure accountability and open communication across the entire football club.

Firstly, if the List Management sub-committee deems the player to be physically and technically capable, and there is nothing else on the open market, age is irrelevant.

Secondly, who in their right mind would want to operate with such oversight? What the @#$%&! would the board - especially ours - know about the intricacies of the playing list?

Again, from the forum:

Quote:
What Board members have any practical football knowledge at the highest level eg actually in running a football club prior to their appointments to the Carlton board ??? - Tony

Mark LoGiudice | Hi Tony, under the guidance of the Independent Nominations Committee, the Board has been deliberately constructed to cover all aspects of the Club and to ensure we have the right skill-sets to govern all areas of the football club, understanding that our core business and key priorities are our football teams. In relation to Director support of our football programs, Chris Judd played 279 games at the highest level, including a premiership and was captain of the Carlton Football Club. He has won the Brownlow medal (twice), Norm Smith medal and is a premiership captain. He also does an outstanding job working with our Head of Football Brad Lloyd to have oversight of our AFL and AFLW program to ensure we are striving to perform at the highest level.

Patty Kinnersly also made history by becoming the Blues’ first designated Board member to oversee the AFLW/VFLW programs. Her appointment reflected the Club’s continued commitment to good governance and to building a skills-based Board aligned to the needs of the Club. Alongside an extensive corporate career, Kinnersly has 14 years of playing experience in the VWFL for the Ballarat Lions, Fairfield Falcons and Parkside Magpies, playing in five premierships and representing Victoria on 10 occasions, twice as captain.

The answer is none, Mark. None of them have experience running a football club, until they're hand picked by your version of the Koch brothers to run ours.

So why are they involved in the minutiae of list management?


This is so funny!

You're complaining about the same oversight that approved the McGovern deal? :lol:

If that deal was approved, there's no deal that wouldn't get through....

Every aspect of that deal has been disastrous, and entirely predictable!!

You're right, our board doesn't understand the intricacies of the playing list... yet, you think SOS understands the intricacies of a playing list?

Our list is full of holes!!

Instead of blindly following SOS's spin, as he had, Liddle had a closer look...

Liddle presented compelling evidence to the board to move SOS on...


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2019 7:54 am 
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Harry Vallence

Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2007 1:39 pm
Posts: 1002
Crusader wrote:
From the Member Forum:

Quote:
Can the CEO explain the reporting lines associated with all members of the list management team prior to the departure of Stephen Silvagni and if it is common practice for staff below CEO level to address the board. - Andrew

Cain Liddle | Hi Andrew, the Club has established strong governance frameworks whereby sub-committees of the board are aligned to key strategic priorities across the business.
Specifically, with list management, the List Management sub-committee is chaired by Chris Judd (Director) and includes the Head of Football, GM List Management & Strategy, the CEO and the List Manager with the Coach and Head of High Performance also consulted across the season. As is the case with all sub-committees, key strategies and decisions are discussed and agreed upon as a sub-committee.  All players who were approached from other clubs as part of our 2019 list management strategy were discussed and rigorously debated over the course of many months at list management.

As per AFL guidelines, the CEO and Board are responsible for signing off on all TPP.
To further ensure good governance in list management, a number of conditions have been introduced by the Board that require the CEO, to seek board approval before some player contracts are agreed to by the club. These conditions relate to length of contracts, quantum of salaries and in some instances, age of players. This further restricts the ability of anyone, at any level, operating in silo and without the collective support of other key stakeholders.
In regards to making presentations to the board, we have various staff members present on a rotational basis to ensure accountability and open communication across the entire football club.

Firstly, if the List Management sub-committee deems the player to be physically and technically capable, and there is nothing else on the open market, age is irrelevant.

Secondly, who in their right mind would want to operate with such oversight? What the @#$%&! would the board - especially ours - know about the intricacies of the playing list?


My read on it is that there are some guardrails around the list management strategy that has been approved by the board which based on the response what the maximum payment a player can be offered, maximum length of contract, etc

This would be in place to ensure that we don't get into the same mess as we were in when SOS came onboard where we were maxed out against the cap with a crap list.

I have no problem with the board holding the LM to account and having some guardrails in place


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2019 1:34 pm 
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Craig Bradley

Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2005 4:04 pm
Posts: 7599
Location: Bendigo
camelboy wrote:
I'm all for holding the board to account (as feeble as that aim is with our current setup), but this ZOMG nobody on the board has experience running a football club is a load of cobblers.

Tell me, across the entire AFL, taking into consideration every board member from all 18 clubs, how many had prior experience in football club administration before taking on their roles?

I'd be shocked to be sitting here if there were more than 10% who could answer yes to that question, I'd even be surprised if as few as 5% had prior experience.

The obvious reply to that question would be, what practical knowledge does Mark have in assessing the performance of a football club board member?

I guess you could say that's why there should be a separation of football and business, as has been the case in every other successful sporting organisation since Adam was in short pants.

Which would be the point that i'm making.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2019 1:53 pm 
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Craig Bradley

Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2005 4:04 pm
Posts: 7599
Location: Bendigo
ColourMan wrote:
You're right, our board doesn't understand the intricacies of the playing list... yet, you think SOS understands the intricacies of a playing list?

Think you'll find that i've got form to the contrary... sort of.

I think his 'the price is the price' approach was excellent.

I think his willingness to cut chaff early was good, albeit more necessary than strategic.

I think his scouting was abysmal. He's staring down the barrel of an 80% turnover rate outside the top 10 live picks.

I suspect his abysmal record outside the top 10 live picks is probably why he threw away so many 2nd & 3rd round opportunities - i.e. he saw their points value as the bird in hand, so to speak.

Mostly, I think that the role SOS created was already an overlay, so to have his process overseen by a sub committee AND then board approval was deadset bonkers. Either you've got the right people, or you don't.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2019 5:25 pm 
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Ken Hunter

Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2006 6:54 pm
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Location: The Vodka Train
..not sure why some ppl think McGovern was a silly trade.. ....in a big fan of him, and think he's actually a good addition to the fwd line..

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2019 5:36 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko
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Location: Kaloyasena
I think you’ll find that they’re not potting the player, they are potting the price paid.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2019 7:10 pm 
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Ken Hunter

Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2006 6:54 pm
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..I've got no issue with that trade from the costing side of it either.. ..we love our club and therefore we over rate it, but we're still having to over pay to attract good talent, and I think McGovern will be a top five player for his career with us.. ....I rate him that highly, by the end of his career the trade price will be very fair..

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2019 7:46 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko
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Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 4:00 pm
Posts: 24631
Location: Kaloyasena
Big Kahuna Boot wrote:
..I've got no issue with that trade from the costing side of it either.. ..we love our club and therefore we over rate it, but we're still having to over pay to attract good talent, and I think McGovern will be a top five player for his career with us.. ....I rate him that highly, by the end of his career the trade price will be very fair..



Your not offering McGovern 3x 2nd rounders to come to Carlton, you’re offering him $700k per year for 5 years to come to Carlton - that’s how you attract talent.

We paid Adelaide the equivalent of 3 x 2nd rounders - that’s not a very fair trade price.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2019 8:19 pm 
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formerly King Kenny
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 06, 2009 8:35 pm
Posts: 20076
Crusader wrote:
From the Member Forum:

Quote:
Can the CEO explain the reporting lines associated with all members of the list management team prior to the departure of Stephen Silvagni and if it is common practice for staff below CEO level to address the board. - Andrew

Cain Liddle | Hi Andrew, the Club has established strong governance frameworks whereby sub-committees of the board are aligned to key strategic priorities across the business.
Specifically, with list management, the List Management sub-committee is chaired by Chris Judd (Director) and includes the Head of Football, GM List Management & Strategy, the CEO and the List Manager with the Coach and Head of High Performance also consulted across the season. As is the case with all sub-committees, key strategies and decisions are discussed and agreed upon as a sub-committee.  All players who were approached from other clubs as part of our 2019 list management strategy were discussed and rigorously debated over the course of many months at list management.

As per AFL guidelines, the CEO and Board are responsible for signing off on all TPP.
To further ensure good governance in list management, a number of conditions have been introduced by the Board that require the CEO, to seek board approval before some player contracts are agreed to by the club. These conditions relate to length of contracts, quantum of salaries and in some instances, age of players. This further restricts the ability of anyone, at any level, operating in silo and without the collective support of other key stakeholders.
In regards to making presentations to the board, we have various staff members present on a rotational basis to ensure accountability and open communication across the entire football club.

Firstly, if the List Management sub-committee deems the player to be physically and technically capable, and there is nothing else on the open market, age is irrelevant.

Secondly, who in their right mind would want to operate with such oversight? What the @#$%&! would the board - especially ours - know about the intricacies of the playing list?

Again, from the forum:

Quote:
What Board members have any practical football knowledge at the highest level eg actually in running a football club prior to their appointments to the Carlton board ??? - Tony

Mark LoGiudice | Hi Tony, under the guidance of the Independent Nominations Committee, the Board has been deliberately constructed to cover all aspects of the Club and to ensure we have the right skill-sets to govern all areas of the football club, understanding that our core business and key priorities are our football teams. In relation to Director support of our football programs, Chris Judd played 279 games at the highest level, including a premiership and was captain of the Carlton Football Club. He has won the Brownlow medal (twice), Norm Smith medal and is a premiership captain. He also does an outstanding job working with our Head of Football Brad Lloyd to have oversight of our AFL and AFLW program to ensure we are striving to perform at the highest level.

Patty Kinnersly also made history by becoming the Blues’ first designated Board member to oversee the AFLW/VFLW programs. Her appointment reflected the Club’s continued commitment to good governance and to building a skills-based Board aligned to the needs of the Club. Alongside an extensive corporate career, Kinnersly has 14 years of playing experience in the VWFL for the Ballarat Lions, Fairfield Falcons and Parkside Magpies, playing in five premierships and representing Victoria on 10 occasions, twice as captain.

The answer is none, Mark. None of them have experience running a football club, until they're hand picked by your version of the Koch brothers to run ours.

So why are they involved in the minutiae of list management?


Maybe the list committee weighed up the $$$ associated to Newnes and Ellis, knowing they didn’t want to carry both looking to future TPP?


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2019 9:58 pm 
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Harry Vallence

Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2007 11:51 am
Posts: 1291
Crusader wrote:
ColourMan wrote:
You're right, our board doesn't understand the intricacies of the playing list... yet, you think SOS understands the intricacies of a playing list?

Think you'll find that i've got form to the contrary... sort of.

I think his 'the price is the price' approach was excellent.

I think his willingness to cut chaff early was good, albeit more necessary than strategic.

I think his scouting was abysmal. He's staring down the barrel of an 80% turnover rate outside the top 10 live picks.

I suspect his abysmal record outside the top 10 live picks is probably why he threw away so many 2nd & 3rd round opportunities - i.e. he saw their points value as the bird in hand, so to speak.

Mostly, I think that the role SOS created was already an overlay, so to have his process overseen by a sub committee AND then board approval was deadset bonkers. Either you've got the right people, or you don't.


Until October/November last year, the sub-committee and board approval was a rubber stamp.

SOS didn’t understand how the points system worked in his first year, other clubs did, and took advantage...

You talk about SOS being abysmal outside of the 10... let’s look at the top 10 picks, you can’t miss with the first pick in the draft (they should be stars), also had pick 3, pick 5, maybe 8, and pick 10

Tell me what you think....


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2019 10:44 pm 
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Ken Hunter

Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2006 6:54 pm
Posts: 14686
Location: The Vodka Train
AGRO wrote:
Big Kahuna Boot wrote:
..I've got no issue with that trade from the costing side of it either.. ..we love our club and therefore we over rate it, but we're still having to over pay to attract good talent, and I think McGovern will be a top five player for his career with us.. ....I rate him that highly, by the end of his career the trade price will be very fair..



Your not offering McGovern 3x 2nd rounders to come to Carlton, you’re offering him $700k per year for 5 years to come to Carlton - that’s how you attract talent.

We paid Adelaide the equivalent of 3 x 2nd rounders - that’s not a very fair trade price.



..we swapped our two second rounders for sydney's first round (pick 13).. ..that went to adelaide.. ....we got the crows future 3rd rounder, and also parted with our fifth.. ....oh yeah, let's not forget our AFL pp state leaguer.. ..not even steak knives.. ..maybe a plastic spork..

....i don't know how it all breaks down as a pure points system type swap.. ..maybe it does work out as the equivalent of three second rounders..?.. ....i see it as a mid to late first rounder for McGovern, and i'm ok with that..

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2019 8:52 am 
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Stephen Silvagni

Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:03 am
Posts: 25005
Location: Bondi Beach
Big Kahuna Boot wrote:
AGRO wrote:
Big Kahuna Boot wrote:
..I've got no issue with that trade from the costing side of it either.. ..we love our club and therefore we over rate it, but we're still having to over pay to attract good talent, and I think McGovern will be a top five player for his career with us.. ....I rate him that highly, by the end of his career the trade price will be very fair..



Your not offering McGovern 3x 2nd rounders to come to Carlton, you’re offering him $700k per year for 5 years to come to Carlton - that’s how you attract talent.

We paid Adelaide the equivalent of 3 x 2nd rounders - that’s not a very fair trade price.



..we swapped our two second rounders for sydney's first round (pick 13).. ..that went to adelaide.. ....we got the crows future 3rd rounder, and also parted with our fifth.. ....oh yeah, let's not forget our AFL pp state leaguer.. ..not even steak knives.. ..maybe a plastic spork..

....i don't know how it all breaks down as a pure points system type swap.. ..maybe it does work out as the equivalent of three second rounders..?.. ....i see it as a mid to late first rounder for McGovern, and i'm ok with that..


I'm from the same school of thought.

23yo at that cost who as a 20yo showed he can win the ball at important times and win games...as a 20 and 21 yo ... when the heat is on.

He's a super talent and an amazing physical specimen. Can jump can mark can sprint can hurt and the right age bracket.
Club forced him to play when he wasn't ready, to the detriment of his reputation. Russell gets him fit and he's back as a super talent.
I think he was worth the cost, and I can't wait to see what more he brings to this side. We don't have any of his type, and the price is the price.

White men can jump. He's proven it.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 12, 2019 8:58 am 
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Stephen Silvagni

Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:03 am
Posts: 25005
Location: Bondi Beach
DocSherrin III wrote:
Liddle's version of accounts was acceptable to me. Also tells me that the next 'list manager' won't have quite the amount of carte blanche that SOS had and that is probably ok except that there's a bit of a conflict of interest in what Liddle has done. Hopefully that doesn't happen again, but we don't need a level of transparency that high that members/supporters/public/media need to know. Some stuff deserves to be kept in-house.

Footy clubs are like families in that they're all a bit dysfunctional when you scratch the surface. I don't agree with a lot of the things MLG, Liddle and co have done over the past few months - but as someone stated earlier, time to move on. In moving on from SOS, the club should reduce its exposure to the heightened drama that he brings, whether that be responding to the likes of Caro on national TV or to a CEO he has no interest in reporting to. It's not their intention, but if Carlton is thought of as boring off-field and exciting on it, then the club heirarchy are, to a certain degree, doing their job.


:clap: :clap: :clap:

Is that you Doc III? or IV?

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2019 11:50 pm 
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Craig Bradley

Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2005 4:04 pm
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Location: Bendigo
bondiblue wrote:
Can jump can mark can sprint can hurt

Nice role player, but no he @#$%&! can’t.

Get real mate.



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PostPosted: Sat Dec 14, 2019 8:15 am 
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formerly Yazzamatazz
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He absolutely can.
Can sit on heads, the quickest at the club (pre this years drsftees) and tackles with intent.
I love what he brings and I reckon his teammates and coach do too.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 14, 2019 9:48 am 
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Ken Hunter
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Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 8:32 am
Posts: 10556
AGRO wrote:
Big Kahuna Boot wrote:
..I've got no issue with that trade from the costing side of it either.. ..we love our club and therefore we over rate it, but we're still having to over pay to attract good talent, and I think McGovern will be a top five player for his career with us.. ....I rate him that highly, by the end of his career the trade price will be very fair..



Your not offering McGovern 3x 2nd rounders to come to Carlton, you’re offering him $700k per year for 5 years to come to Carlton - that’s how you attract talent.

We paid Adelaide the equivalent of 3 x 2nd rounders - that’s not a very fair trade price.


I said it then and I’ll say it now. We paid way overs. SOS made mistakes, ie. Tuohy as well, so no one is saying he was perfect but maybe, just maybe the club leaders have a bigger responsibility here.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 14, 2019 4:11 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan
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You lot do drone on.

Oops. Wrong thread

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2019 3:23 pm 
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Stephen Silvagni

Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:03 am
Posts: 25005
Location: Bondi Beach
Crusader wrote:
bondiblue wrote:
Can jump can mark can sprint can hurt

Nice role player, but no he @#$%&! can’t.

Get real mate.



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Out of order with that comment Cru.

You should have seen the form he bought in the final rounds after the club got him fit.

You should get out more and watch Carlton. Things have changed for the club and the player.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2019 10:04 pm 
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Harry Vallence

Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2007 11:51 am
Posts: 1291
bondiblue wrote:
Crusader wrote:
bondiblue wrote:
Can jump can mark can sprint can hurt

Nice role player, but no he @#$%&! can’t.

Get real mate.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Out of order with that comment Cru.

You should have seen the form he bought in the final rounds after the club got him fit.

You should get out more and watch Carlton. Things have changed for the club and the player.


You can't be serious, I was at the last 3 games (Tigers & saints at the G, Geelong at Kardinia Park) when the club got him "fit"... were you?

He averaged 10 possessions in those 3 games, which is his career average... what was even more alarming, he still needed to visit the interchange bench 5 times a game for the those games for those 10 possessions!!!!!!!! We were counting, with others who post here...

It can't be because of all his running or giving anyone a spell in the midfield, maybe he was just hungry! :lol:

He averaged just under 75 % TOG, while Crippa averaged just over 90 % TOG...

Yep, so far worth every cent of the $700K and what we gave up for him...


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