The problem for the club is that all that expenditure goes into producing a draft board with ten names on it and once those names are gone, it's a lucky dip.

Maybe that's where SOS wants to spend more money, double the expenditure for a list of 20 names? How much of the spy network that he inherited does he still use?

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"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter" - Winston Churchill.

Yeah. It’s good discussion, no problems.

And I agree with the above. But I’m greedy. I wouldn’t want to burn top 20 picks as they have. I want it all. Haha.

SOS seems to get a lot of criticism, probably rightly, for bad rookie picks.

Wells doesn’t cop enough in my opinion for his top 20 failures. The chances of a premiership would have been greater if not for those failures. Not sure the same can be said about poor rookie picks.

Yeah nah, all good discussion.

I’m only looking at the window of SOSs tenure & using Geelong as an example of what one team has been able to do with much less.

SOS has used nine first round picks at the draft and has struck gold with five of them. Cunningham, Dow, LOB & Stocker are somewhere between maybe and probably not. He’s used another three in trades, including a 1st, 3rd and 4th round pick for Marchbank and pick #13 for Brackets McGovern who is most unnecessary as a player, but also as using #13 for Stocker would’ve negated the trade with Adelaide & we’d have this year’s pick #4 in hand.

2015 was exceptional - a genuine 12/10. But, the following years are pretty bleak in isolation.

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"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter" - Winston Churchill.

Yep good discussion, but I think your still after SOS' arse and looking 'hard' for kinks. The real essence of the discussion is SOS' later picks being 'bleak' which Toddkurnski showed not many do well with latter picks, and the 1st or 2nd round ppicks SOS made.

You can't write off 19yo Stocker, let alone 20yo's Obrien and Dow, and Cuningham imo is more than a 'maybe' because when he played in 2019 he tore his opponents a new one. I don't think those 4 should be in any discussion re pass or fail so early in their careers, and therefore too early to stain SOS' name with such assertions. Cuningham turns 23 in 2020 so a lot of eyes on him this year.

What I saw in McGovern after he was trained 'properly' by Russell to be fit to play is the McGovern we all hoped he would be. The bloke is an athletic marvel. Can run quick, can jump really high, can kick goals a plenty, and can hit hard. One has to remember Teague wanted him n the ground for his leadership inspite of him not being really fit to play following 2 ankle surgeries then a broken back during the preseason. He shouldn't have been judged on that, the MC should.

Are you sure Marchbank cost us a 1st 3rd and 4th rounder? Are you calling Marchbank a fail back when Carlton was not a destination club.

I think you pitch the Stocker pick with an obvious anti SOS bias. He was earmarked as a pick 6, yes debatable, as is this year's pick 4, we got 2 first round players for the first rounder we traded, he looked fantastic playing HBF for an 19yo till injured, and look awesome in his return to do a preseason. You seem to be one of the rare people who doesn't see that trade as a win for us at this stage...says more about you and your feelings towards SOS.

As much as this is a good discussion, the SOS bashing has been done to death imo, and, sorry, but I have to call you out on doing that again.

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Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

I think Stocker will be alright, but 'maybe' is as good as it gets without a proper test. Next level up from maybe is 'yes'.

Cunningham doesn't add much from the rehab group. Not SOS's fault, but the benchmark you want to use factors these into the average.

Dow and LOB are absolutely in the gun. They get rag-dolled on the inside and are as plain as a dry salada on the outside. LOB can run all day and kicks pretty good, but might be a bit of a squibb. Maybe they'll make it as AFL players, but the price was pretty high.

Yes Marchbank cost all of that. We had to trade away Touhy and a 2nd to get that 1st, but I didn't want to hang that (or Pickett, or Smedts) on Marchbank.

Outside of 2015...
The Marchbank trade is a loss. There's just too much outgoing for a fringe player to overcome. There was a 2nd round pick in the mix, but SOS flipped that to Hawthorn for dregs (Macreadie, Williamson & Kerr). Had we used one of those on Cam Zurhaar or Rowan Marshall, the pressure would be off.
The Lang trade is a loss.
The Gibbs trade might be a win. It's not helped by LOB, or the pick swap with the Doggies that landed TDK. But, it did land Kennedy, who is going at least as good as Gibbs is at the moment. Plus, it lives on through Pittonet and some late picks this year.
The McGovern deal is in the balance. I think he's unnecessary, but he's in my best 22.
The Newman trade is a win. There is nothing in the 4th round this year that is better than him.
The Setterfield trade is a win. There is nothing in the 2nd round this year that is better than him.

I'm not gunning for SOS - that 2015 off season will be spoken about in supporter circles for decades to come. But, i'm not greasing his pole like 2016 and 2017 didn't happen. The only good thing out of those two intakes is that he missed so many times, we finished last in 2018 and got Walsh.

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"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter" - Winston Churchill.

Good response Cru

I'm going to follow up that Marchbank trade because I'm sure there's more to it than you state...and I think you undervalue Marchbank. Ive spoken to some layers on their thoughts on Marchbank which I will not share because it degrades others a tad ... he's a remarkable athletic specimen that can do stuff most others in our best 22 can't. You and I will always disagree about Marchbank, and when he comes back fit and firing as he has in the past, I'm going to make noise....good noise.

The Gibbs trade might be a win?

Anyway, I wasn't a fan of LOD but he showed qualities contrary to being a squib in the latter part of the season and I still consider 20 yo against mature teams a bit early to know. Dow, I have no doubt will be a gem....yet neither are in my foirst 22 because I consider them too young and undeveloped: that's all. Fisher is the one who got rag dolled in 2019 but geez he's come back a bit different...good diffrent...and he's a year older than the 2 20 yo's you have doubts on.

One of us will be right at the end, but I don't think you have the .... right...no...the insight to write kids off at 20 yo.

No problem...its off season and its going to be a long summer so we have to have something to disgaree about...and agree too.

Good for you Cru

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Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

Weitering and SPS written off at 20.

You have to give them time. I’m not confident on LOB either but way too early to say any of Dow, LOB or Stocker won’t make it. Dow and Stocker have plenty of talent.

Anyone who wrote Weiters off needs to have a good hard look at himself and HTFU. Bloke is a gun. SPS took a few "easy first dish" options under Bolts, but was showing a lot towards the end of last season off the HBF and we know he can play. All these guys, including Dow and LOB will blossom under Russell regime and freed up under Teague. Stocker will be a gun IMHO. Willo is looking great and Guvna will be a real asset after a decent pre season. Bluest skies we've had for many years

I'm not sure which picks you're talking about... it can't be the pick swap with the Hawks, and we got fleeced badly (as pointed out elsewhere in this thread) on the Marchbank deal because GWS insisted on a 1st rounder for Caleb instead of the 2nd rounder that we originally had (I think something like pick 15 instead of pick 21, GWS weren't very friendly)... no favors done there, even though we also took Pickett, who GWS considered lazy and a list clogger, in addition to being a salary cap dump for the GWS... and this was critical for GWS, because without GWS being able to offload Pickett and Palmer (SOS coming to the rescue of GWS), they wouldn't have been able to pick up Deledio!

GWS needed the salary cap room to bring Deledio across (and list spot)... he was going to go to the Dogs until GWS stepped in late with a bigger offer!!

BTW, the 3rd rounder was included in the Marchbank deal could have been used on Jack Graham but SOS might have overruled BB again...

I haven't made anything up, I've been very specific.... so, exactly which favourable pick exchange are you talking about?

Williamson and Kerr were decent pick ups. Kerr got squashed out. Under normal circumstances he would've played quite a few and been a regular. Just had too many in front of him. We know Williamson can certainly play and very happy we got him. Marchbank is a decent trade. He'll be very good. McGovern is a very good player when fit.

TDK is going to be an ideal replacement for Kreuzer. He will be a good one.

I thought Marchbank was a great trade target. The final deal got out of hand, but we ended up with a good player... that was then.

If he's going to break into the senior side, he has to take Plowman's spot. He's not going to oust the captain, nor is he within a bull's roar of beating Weitering or Jones to their places. SPS & one other runner, probably Newman, complete the group. There's no space on the bench for spare defenders that aren't also a ruck & forward relief.

The chips are stacked against him, because Plowman is:
A) Top 3 BnF - the best of all defenders, and
B) Not recovering from a broken neck.

Agree 100%, we'll have some sort of player if he does break into the side with a full list to select from.

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"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter" - Winston Churchill.

Good points made there.
I'm not sure SPS will be a permanent fixture off HB.
When was the last time our best back six had a decent run of games together?
Teams who play finals do it because there are players who should be in their best 22 but aren't.
That's where we're coming to. When we are doing well in the VFL as well as the AFL, we know we are a solid club.

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Let slip the Blues of war (with apologies to William Shakespeare) (and Sir Francis Bacon, just in case)

Teague made it pretty clear he wanted SPS down back and behind the ball. Was watching it closely at the 2nd Gold Coast game - as soon as we took clean possession he was sprinting to get behind play as the outlet for a switch. Get to use his kicking that way, which is his weapon.

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O say does that star spangled banner yet wave.

I thought it was reasonably simple.
We didn't target Palmer. We took on his salary as a part of the Marchbank trade so it shouldn't be viewed in isolation.
As for Marchbank, IMHO, he'll be a star. You say we got fleeced badly. If he is a 10 year key defender for us when we're challenging for flags, he'll be an inspired choice.
The kid is 22 years old.

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Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.

Agree with Marchy. Just needs a decent run at it. Plenty of talent and I reckon he can go past Plowman (though I'm not a fan of Plow so probably biased)

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Fat, drunk, and stupid is no way to go through life, son.

I like Marchbank too, whether he plays 10 more games or 10 more years (and I hope it’s 10 more years), we got fleeced badly with the Marchbank trade even before we took Palmer!!!

So what was the benefit of the Palmer trade?

There were 2 salary dumps in those trades!!!

We became GWS’s perennial dumping ground

Just because SOS says something, doesn’t always make it so.... it was a good deal! (a little Trumpian)

The Cats didn’t buckle with their offer for Stevens to the Saints because the Cats understood the Saints objectives.... we haven’t bothered to consider/understand the objectives of our trading partners, which means we haven’t come close to maximising our trade assets/trades

Thankfully, there are now people at the club who don’t have the blind faith in SOS people here have, who have looked at the trades and draft selections that have been debated here, asking the questions that have been asked here

If he plays 10 more years and is a gun key defender, how were we fleeced?
Surely the decision can not be made until his career finishes.

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Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.

Not so unnecessary with a goofball like Charlie to accommodate.

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"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter" - Winston Churchill.

One point that gets lost in the argument is also how sos has restructured player contracts and now paying the right price for our list which future list managers will react the benifit from years down the track.

Half the list is out of contract next year. Best part of 40% of the TPP (including both captains RFA) in 2021.

Hope he leaves a box of antacid on the desk when he goes.

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"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter" - Winston Churchill.